1911 'Group Porn'

[Timothy]

The 945 is the only one of the bunch that I would risk my life with.... super-reliable, ridiculously accurate.

I would be forced to agree as I've put 50 rounds through one at the S&W range last fall.  It's nice when someone hands you a $3000.00 race gun, 50 rounds and two targets to play with.

Without my glasses, blind to the rear sight, a blur of the front sight, barely....the gun (not me) managed to put 45 out of 50 rounds in a 6" spread at 25 yards....lord knows where the others ended up...I'll chalk them up to a few flyers...

Sweet trigger, too bad I couldn't see, I know I can shoot better than that...at least in my younger days...

To clarify, I trust MY life to a 1911, my comments were on the accuracy of an overpriced 945...

[1911 Junkie]

I guess I'm no "expert", just a shooter.

The line has been around for 100 years.  People seem to just need to be fashionable I suppose.
I have more rounds through one of my guns than most people will shoot trhough all of theirs in their
lifetime. If reliability was a problem, they would be gone. I guess I only own the "flukes" that work.

Rob, seriously, for all the good info you provide sometimes you talk out your ass.  It started with your
ignorance on frangibles and continues into this.  I guess Rob Leatham and Todd Jarret are only in it for
the money. To bad. Not to mention all the other competition shooters.

I look for 3 things in a gun: good sights, good trigger, and it has to bang every time. Works for me.

http://www.downrange.tv/show1/
I can't believe all the editing that must have taken place to make it look like that gun never malfunctioned.

Rant over

Nice guns, maybe you should "liberate" them to someone who will apperciate them.

[Rob Pincus]

Dude, I'm sorry that you don't hold the same opinions as I do as to the reliability of 1911s in general.... but the fact is that I've never said that they all don't work... heck I just pointed out that a couple of mine work really well.... note that they are the more expensive ones. Probably like the type that Mr. Leatham and Mr. Jarrett would rely upon... along with most of the other competition shooters. I don't spend time watching the world class guys shoot.... mostly I watch and work with regular guys that have regular guns... professional and personal... and , when it comes to 1911s, I watch theirs choke and fail regularly. I think we had 3 make it through an entire 2 day class without failing last year... and at least one of them was cleaned at lunch both days and at the end of the 1st day.

You can always find examples that work, the question is whether or not you can just as easily find examples that don't... My opinions here are based on empirical evidence.

As for your collection of criteria:

I look for 3 things in a gun: good sights, good trigger, and it has to bang every time.

Do you really think that 95% of the 1911's put out in the first 100 years of their existence meet the first criteria?
Do you really think that 95% of the 1911's put out under $800 in the last 20 years meet the second?
Do you think that because $2000+ competition and custom guns in the hands of world class competitors meet the last one that it translates to all other examples?


Having a pet gun that you love is cool... thinking that anyone who doesn't speak endearingly about it and all of its cousins is talking "out his ass" is silly. Attributing the criteria you espouse to all 1911's across the board is just being blind.

***


I'm really not sure what you mean in regard to the frangibles..... I'm pretty sure that we did more work researching the frangible products available between 2003 and 2006 than just about any other group as we built up Valhalla. Just had a great conversation on the topic with one of the new companies trying to get some things right last week, in fact. We also taped a littel myth-busting segment on frangibles for the new TBD show la couple weeks ago while at US Training Center. If you have info that contradicts something I've put out, please start a thread and lets discuss.... you probably won't say anything that offends me so much that I resort to foul language and questioning your integrity.

-RJP

PS- as for the "liberation" I'm taking offers via email or PM for the Para... the rest all hold some aspect of personal endearment for me.

[PegLeg45]

Rob, I (along with many) also appreciate your candid input. I regard what you say highly, as you have a wide collective with regards to what you see continuously, and you make sense of it. I can (and really do) appreciate what you had to say about the Ultra Carry II because you've come across many more than I have. And, because of your post I will seriously re-examine the Kimber as a choice (not like I have the $$ to get one right now anyway). I understand that the problem with reliability is inherent to the size of the gun. Shrunken 1911's are a bit more touchy than the larger sized ones.

I would also allow (from my own witnessing) that the reason a lot of 1911's don't run for some shooters is sometimes as much the operator as it is the gun. And, that alone is reason enough for one not to carry something if they can't shoot it reliably. It does have a manual of arms that is somewhat 'distinct', and maybe even styled more towards classic purists, who are intimate with said pistols. 1911's aren't for everyone.

I would like to point out that because I said I wanted one to possibly replace a G27 with a smaller 1911 didn't mean that I would get one and start carrying it for CCW right away the next day and trust my life to it, that would be foolish to say the least (although I know there are many folks who would). I wouldn't do that with any gun, regardless of manufacturer or type. It must be vetted first, as most of my 1911's are.

With the exception of my Springfield, all have been in my possession for at least fifteen years and I have no problem trusting them because I have shot them a lot and know what will work in them and what won't.
I have shot enough Cor-Bon JHP through my Commander alone to pay for the Kimber and the ONLY reason I don't carry it every day is the weight factor. It don't choke (and anyone can choose to believe that or not), the G27 is simply smaller and lighter for summer-style CCW.

My 1911 might not 'survive' your course (hell, I probably wouldn't survive your course either).  



Really nice guns, men....and m25, you're making me sick.....(with envy   ).

[Rob Pincus]

Understood, Peg!  I certainly would hpe that anyone would run a few hundred (at least) through any semi-auto they purchase before counting on it! Your point about the manual of arms with the 1911 is well taken.... and that is the main reason that I don't recommend them for new shooters in general. The manual safety and single action trigger make the gun harder to learn to use properly, safely and and efficiently.  I REALLY didn't want this to turn into a 1911 vs. Others thread.... just wanted to throw out the PSA about the UCII.....  IF I could, I'd split out my rude interruption and all that followed related to 1911 Usefulness... but I don't have that power in this sub-forum.

Lets go back to looking at pictures?  (Anyone can feel free to start another thread to discuss other issues....)

-RJP

[Sponsor]

[PegLeg45]

Understood, Peg!  I certainly would hpe that anyone would run a few hundred (at least) through any semi-auto they purchase before counting on it! Your point about the manual of arms with the 1911 is well taken.... and that is the main reason that I don't recommend them for new shooters in general. The manual safety and single action trigger make the gun harder to learn to use properly, safely and and efficiently.  I REALLY didn't want this to turn into a 1911 vs. Others thread.... just wanted to throw out the PSA about the UCII.....  IF I could, I'd split out my rude interruption and all that followed related to 1911 Usefulness... but I don't have that power in this sub-forum.

Lets go back to looking at pictures?  (Anyone can feel free to start another thread to discuss other issues....)

-RJP

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn't take it as a rude interruption. I took it as genuine concern, based on a set of learned experiences by someone who has seen and done things that many have not. That's what I've grown to like and greatly appreciate about the DRTV Forums.....
If everyone puts in their 2 cents, and we discuss the pros and cons of the issue based on experiences, then we should all be better off in the long run.....
And, might even be able to buy a couple of cups of coffee with the change.   

[tombogan03884]

Understood, Peg!  I certainly would hpe that anyone would run a few hundred (at least) through any semi-auto they purchase before counting on it! Your point about the manual of arms with the 1911 is well taken.... and that is the main reason that I don't recommend them for new shooters in general. The manual safety and single action trigger make the gun harder to learn to use properly, safely and and efficiently.  I REALLY didn't want this to turn into a 1911 vs. Others thread.... just wanted to throw out the PSA about the UCII.....  IF I could, I'd split out my rude interruption and all that followed related to 1911 Usefulness... but I don't have that power in this sub-forum.

Lets go back to looking at pictures?  (Anyone can feel free to start another thread to discuss other issues....)

-RJP

I feel compelled to comment on this by asking a question of Rob, but I want everyone else to ask it of themselves while considering his answer.
Q: Rob, How many 1911's do you see in an average year, (please define "a s#$tload" )
 If you did cut out the comment on the Kimber you would be depriving us of valuable information.
Frederick the Great said fools learn from experience, a wise man learns from the experience of others. This is a subject where YOU have more experience than most of us combined.

[m25operator]

Robs experience accepted of course, I have been a range officer for 26 years in pistol, rifle and shotgun competition, bullseye to Uspsa, I have seen many 1911 failures, some inherent to the manufacturer and most not. Most common.

1) reloaded ammo.
2) non ball ammo.
3) operator error, ( limp wristing, small person shooting, with not enough strength to back it up )
4) home smithing and modifications, to springs and such.

Every failure you have read about, I have witnessed.

1) collet bushing fracture and failing. Poor design for reliability.
2) double charge that blows the magazine out, and blows the grips off. Operator error.
3) elliason sight roll pin breakage on Gold cups. Bad choice of parts.
4) on the early Kimber officers models, the barrel bushing was too thin where it holds the spring plunger, and the ears would
break off, and the spring and plunger would shoot downrange, They did fix it. Poor design to start.
5) sear and disconnector failure, Read: full auto. Normally, home made trigger jobs gone wrong, and gold cups, misassembly.
Nearly lost a friend to that one, walked out on the range after reassembling his pistol, and dropped the slide on a full mag, with it in his strong hand, and it went FA, 3 rounds of hardball in his left arm, and he was lucky. Because of his experience, I never drop the slide on a 1911 without my finger on the trigger, holding it back and with both hands around the grip just in case. Read Peglegs post, I did learn from my friends experience.
6) match fitting of the barrel and slide, needs to be broken in, to be reliable, and just like race cars, match guns need to be fed race ammo, tailored to the gun, expect malfunctions until these two criteria meet. I had a friend who brought me a Les Bauer Comanche, that Worked when it was shot, but was fit so tight you could not operate it by hand, when a round was chambered. But when loaded, it shot and fed.

I own 9, 1911's with 2 on the build, all work with wadcutter ammunition, except the .22rf of course, and the .22rf are more finicky. So I do own and shoot them, like them very much, but if I took one of Robs classes, it would be hardball all the way. And sorry to say, I would take it with a glock probably. As that is my go to, no BS pistols, more ammo, and unarguable track record.

But that spare Colt slide and a guy on AR15dotcom with a .460 rowland conversion has got me interested, not to mention a friend gave me a Delta elite barrel, so a new Sti slide in .40 with the full length slide with no dust cuts sounds interesting.

[ericire12]

Dude, I'm sorry that you don't hold the same opinions as I do as to the reliability of 1911s in general.... but the fact is that I've never said that they all don't work... heck I just pointed out that a couple of mine work really well.... note that they are the more expensive ones. Probably like the type that Mr. Leatham and Mr. Jarrett would rely upon... along with most of the other competition shooters. I don't spend time watching the world class guys shoot.... mostly I watch and work with regular guys that have regular guns... professional and personal... and , when it comes to 1911s, I watch theirs choke and fail regularly. I think we had 3 make it through an entire 2 day class without failing last year... and at least one of them was cleaned at lunch both days and at the end of the 1st day.

You can always find examples that work, the question is whether or not you can just as easily find examples that don't... My opinions here are based on empirical evidence.

As for your collection of criteria:

Do you really think that 95% of the 1911's put out in the first 100 years of their existence meet the first criteria?
Do you really think that 95% of the 1911's put out under $800 in the last 20 years meet the second?
Do you think that because $2000+ competition and custom guns in the hands of world class competitors meet the last one that it translates to all other examples?


Having a pet gun that you love is cool... thinking that anyone who doesn't speak endearingly about it and all of its cousins is talking "out his ass" is silly. Attributing the criteria you espouse to all 1911's across the board is just being blind.

***


I'm really not sure what you mean in regard to the frangibles..... I'm pretty sure that we did more work researching the frangible products available between 2003 and 2006 than just about any other group as we built up Valhalla. Just had a great conversation on the topic with one of the new companies trying to get some things right last week, in fact. We also taped a littel myth-busting segment on frangibles for the new TBD show la couple weeks ago while at US Training Center. If you have info that contradicts something I've put out, please start a thread and lets discuss.... you probably won't say anything that offends me so much that I resort to foul language and questioning your integrity.

-RJP

PS- as for the "liberation" I'm taking offers via email or PM for the Para... the rest all hold some aspect of personal endearment for me.

"Lose that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock."

 








Re: Liberation....
How about free to a good home? 

[1911 Junkie]

Hey, I needed to rant. I'm not questioning Robs integrity, I just get tired of hearing the stuff sometimes.
I do appologize if I got personal. Unfortunatley you usually are a voice of reason and people listen to you although I can't figure out why The frangible comment
was from an old thread and not worth rehashing.
Rob, I would probably take you up on the LDA but I have a S&W M&P on the way (baby steps in going to
plastic).
+1 on what m25 said.

I lube my guns, cleaning means taking a screwdriver and scraping out the chunks when it starts to slow
down (somewhere around 5000 rds).  Most of the failures I've seen are from people screwing with their
guns themselves(not that thats ever happened to any of mine ).

Holy crap, I forgot to get a pic of my .38 super comp, Para frame, STI slide, Clarke 7 port comp, and
Doctor sight cut into the slide.  Not sure on that sight(or the whole set-up) never got into the "space
gun" scene.

Eric, you're quoting movies......................just like Badger