Author Topic: reloading technique question  (Read 8462 times)

Rob Pincus

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2009, 09:53:45 PM »
It doesn't matter very much.

*****

That said, the old school tradition, which was established for no apparent reason other than tradition, is to point your bullets forward. It is generally the preferred method simply because that's how all the competitors do it... and so did the guys they copied... and so did the guys they copied. There is not an objective reason for the preference. If someone tells you otherwise, please let me know the reason cited.... This is a perfect example of the importance of the "why?" question and the irrelevance of the "I can do it faster this way" answer..... "***** can do it fast that way" is even less important.  Here's our "why?" explanation:

The fact is that carrying them forward is bio-mechanically less efficient than carrying them with the bullets backwards. You an search YouTube for a video clip with an explanation of this concept from the Combat Focus Shooting program, it includes a demo of the two versions compared to one another in terms of efficiency. If you look at how the hand/arm work, the bullets pointed backwards method is more intuitive and efficient. It is consistent with the way you would reach into your pocket and pull something out. It also allows your hand and the magazine to stay against your body and the mag is brought up to the gun in a high-compressed ready, which enhances your ability to reload without looking at the gun and in confined spaces.

Given a Blank Slate student, we always recommend bullets backwards. If, however, someone is an experienced shooter with hundreds or thousands of reps reloading with their bullets forward, we do not recommend that they change. I think that the time/effort/energy involved in changed the technique outweighs the advantage of carrying in the more efficient way. I think this came up in the class that FA was in last week, as some students were experienced with the "bullets forward" style. This is one of those key examples of allowing common sense to prevail over an instructors own personal preference and understand the difference between "perfection" and "practically acceptable".


As a side note, most people over-think the mechanics of a reload... as some of you have noted above, some things "just feel right" or "just work"... that is INTUITIVE stuff and that is usually the stuff that will work best for you. Indexing the bullet, for example, is something that you do not need to do if you carry your mags consistently in one direction al the time and which actually over-complicates the process. None of you need to do such a thing to bring your two hands together at any point around your body.... inserting the new mag is simply that action while you hands are holding the gun and the mag. Intuitive skill development will trump contrived mechanics every time given equal time and effort in training.

Again, the caveat to all this is that "I can do it THIS way quickly" means nothing if you have only practiced one way. We are looking for an objective bio-mechanical answer, not dogma or personal experience based on repetitive practice with a less efficient method. As Tony Blauer often says, "be careful what you practice, you may get really good at the wrong thing."

-RJP

PS- If you really don't like my explanation based solely on your preference or what you've seen other people do, you should go back to the first sentence of my post and let it go. ;)

1911 Junkie

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2009, 10:03:07 PM »
Do you have a link?  The way I do it is second nature now. Finger along the front of the mag helps keep
the top of the mag in line with the gun so it goes in straight.  Are you wrapping your entire hand around
the mag?

I need a visual or better explanation.  Just trying to expand my mind (today's a better day).
"I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eye and shoot him with my old .45"  Hank Jr.

Rob Pincus

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2009, 10:18:54 PM »
I don't have one  immediately... there is a user "Stella"-something  that posted a bunch of rips from CFS training DVDs at Youtube...I know that there was a teaching demo of the concept in her collection at one point... searching "combat focus shooting" at youtube will certainly yield some examples.  The fact is that the instructions we give to new shooters are:

"reach down with your weak hand and grab you spare magazine, pull it out of carrier, follow your body up to pistol (already in the high compressed ready), insert it firmly, rotate your hand around without loosing contact with the magazine, reach up and over, grab the slide behind the ejection port, pull back and release."

We teach that from reload #1 the student doesn't look at the gun or mag. This fights against establishing wasteful extra steps, worrying about the position of fingers, over thinking the process and developing a dependency on visual reference (which will be hampered by tunnel vision and tachyspsychia as well as going against natural behavior and visual priorities during a fight).

-RJP

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2009, 10:21:16 PM »
Thanks.

Seems like more gross motor skills so less to screw up.
"I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eye and shoot him with my old .45"  Hank Jr.

Hazcat

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2009, 10:24:53 PM »
Rob,

Not being an idpa or ipsic (sp?) shooter myselfl let me ask a dumb question.  Are the mags in the carrier on your waist pointed up (bullets at the top) or pointed down?  If down I can easily see how bullet to the rear would work.  Natural hand movement.
All tipoes and misspelings are copi-righted.  Pleeze do not reuse without ritten persimmons  :D

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #15 on: Today at 10:48:28 AM »

MikeBjerum

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2009, 10:36:27 PM »
I'm not going to disagree with many of the points Rob makes, but in USPSA shooting you have a perfect world.  You have your mags all on a belt and in holders that are all adjusted for ergonomics.  I actually miss wearing my belt after a match, because the way things are set up the mag pouches are in the perfect position for resting my hands.  

For me ... my mags are in the pouches at an angle that keeps my hand, wrist and arm in straight alignment as I grasp the mag; the bullets are bullets are up (forward as you work around the world); as I start the reload I release the grip with my left hand and start for a mag; at the same time I hit the mag release and twist the gun an eighth of a turn to the right; by this time I am raising the mag with my left index finger on the top bullet; I make a one eighth to quarter twist to the left (like loosening a bottle cap); as my finger makes contact with the mag well base; I roll my finger back and seat the mag with the pad of my hand.

I have been successful with pointing the cartridges several directions (forward, back or 90 degrees away from my body), but I just can't get comfortable or smooth if I can't put my index finger tip on the bullet tip (I love JHP, because regardless of conditions I can feel that rough edge with my finger).

Practice is the key.  If you don't practice reloads a lot you will never know where the comfort level is for how to place your mags.  For me it is at the point of my pelvis - in front of this the bullets are forward, and behind they are back.  This leads to perfect grasping because of the way my hand drops.  Old elbows and shoulders will do more to remind you of this if you forget.

Without mag pouches I rely completely on feel.  In this case I must get my index finger on the bullet tip for reference.  If I can't feel the bullet, I can't get the reload done without looking, and looking wastes time.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

MikeBjerum

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2009, 10:42:21 PM »
Rob,

Not being an idpa or ipsic (sp?) shooter myselfl let me ask a dumb question.  Are the mags in the carrier on your waist pointed up (bullets at the top) or pointed down?  If down I can easily see how bullet to the rear would work.  Natural hand movement.

Haz,

On my open and limited rig my magazines lay anywhere from a 15 degree to 45 degree angle from parallel to the ground with the bullets pointing up (forward as you twist around).  My first magazine is centered on my naval, and I try not to go beyond the side seam of my pants.

With my production and single stack (also limited 10) the magazines are vertical (90 to the ground) and because of where the pouches are placed by rule I do the some forward and some backward.  This is a technique that requires muscle memory.  For me, and some others, it is just plain natural. But, for some people everything must be the same.

NOTE:  I do not shoot IDPA - Only USPSA.  Because of this, the only time I need to deal with a pocket is for a spare I don't plan on using (like a spare tire just in case), and the only time I deal with retention is if there is a stage where I do a reload on the move as a time saver and want to keep a partial magazine just in case I need a couple extra later.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

Hazcat

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2009, 10:48:00 PM »
Haz,

On my open and limited rig my magazines lay anywhere from a 15 degree to 45 degree angle from parallel to the ground with the bullets pointing up (forward as you twist around).  My first magazine is centered on my naval, and I try not to go beyond the side seam of my pants.

With my production and single stack (also limited 10) the magazines are vertical (90 to the ground) and because of where the pouches are placed by rule I do the some forward and some backward.  This is a technique that requires muscle memory.  For me, and some others, it is just plain natural. But, for some people everything must be the same.

HMM, that whole thing seems odd to me (remember I have NEVER done it).  Just sittin here going through the motions it seems I would want my mags on my belt 'upside down' and bullets to the rear.

Then again, I do lots o' things strange. ;)
All tipoes and misspelings are copi-righted.  Pleeze do not reuse without ritten persimmons  :D

MikeBjerum

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
HMM, that whole thing seems odd to me (remember I have NEVER done it).  Just sittin here going through the motions it seems I would want my mags on my belt 'upside down' and bullets to the rear.

Then again, I do lots o' things strange. ;)

Like Rob said ... There's more than one way to skin a cat ... Ooooops ... reload you gun.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

1911 Junkie

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Re: reloading technique question
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2009, 11:11:12 PM »
O.K. I tried. There seems to be segments missing and none of the ones I watched explained the reload
but I did see it a few times.  The best way I can explain is to start backwards.  If you are taking the mag
out of the gun and holding it ( think ballpoint pen ala Bob Dole), stick it in your pocket. Natural movement
will put it bullets down facing rear.  Reverse the process to load. No thinking, just doing (not that I'm going
to change).

I will admit I've never watched any of Robs stuff before. We do a lot of similar drills just to mix things up.
I hate to say I think I actually like the guy after watching him. :-[  I can see where his classes could be
beneficial. I subscribe to the old adage "those that can, do, those that can't, teach". Rob might be
one of the few exceptions.
More personable in video than in type. ;)

But seriously, do you have a clone or what?
"I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eye and shoot him with my old .45"  Hank Jr.

 

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