felons and background checks...

[TAB]

I would not waste my time attempting the impossible. Felons were NOT prohibited from owning arms after their sentence was served until 1934 NFA went into effect. Just in case you haven't noticed it has no effect. Criminals get guns when ever they want.

did you read the 1st post?

[tombogan03884]

Yes I read the first post, I also read your incorrect post about all other rights being limited that we have gone over before and showed you to be wrong.

[Fatman]

Just about every  right has some sort of delay with it.  Want to march on washington?  guess what you need a permit, pay a large fee and give them months notice before hand.

Want to form a chruch that is not a biz?  guess what, more paper work, a back ground check and a even longer wait.

you name the right, there are restrictions on it.  A background check does not stop you from owning a gun( assuming its legal for you to do so)

So let me ask how would you keep felons form legally buying guns?

Keep them in jail? Obliterate gangs with extreme prejudice once and for all?

FBI: Burgeoning gangs behind up to 80% of U.S. crime
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
Criminal gangs in the USA have swelled to an estimated 1 million members responsible for up to 80% of crimes in communities across the nation, according to a gang threat assessment compiled by federal officials.

The major findings in a report by the Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center, which has not been publicly released, conclude gangs are the "primary retail-level distributors of most illicit drugs" and several are "capable" of competing with major U.S.-based Mexican drug-trafficking organizations.

"A rising number of U.S.-based gangs are seemingly intent on developing working relationships" with U.S. and foreign drug-trafficking organizations and other criminal groups to "gain direct access to foreign sources of illicit drugs," the report concludes.

The gang population estimate is up 200,000 since 2005.

Bruce Ferrell, chairman of the Midwest Gang Investigators Association, whose group monitors gang activity in 10 states, says the number of gang members may be even higher than the report's estimate.

"We've seen an expansion for the last 10 years," says Ferrell, who has reviewed the report. "Each year, the numbers are moving forward."

'Growing threat' on the move

The report says about 900,000 gang members live "within local communities across the country," and about 147,000 are in U.S. prisons or jails.

"Most regions in the United States will experience increased gang membership … and increased gang-related criminal activity," the report concludes, citing a recent rise in gangs on the campuses of suburban and rural schools.

Among the report's other findings:

•Last year, 58% of state and local law enforcement agencies reported that criminal gangs were active in their jurisdictions, up from 45% in 2004.

•More gangs use the Internet, including encrypted e-mail, to recruit and to communicate with associates throughout the U.S. and other countries.

•Gangs, including outlaw motorcycle groups, "pose a growing threat" to law enforcement authorities along the U.S.-Canadian border. The U.S. groups are cooperating with Canadian gangs in various criminal enterprises, including drug smuggling.

Assistant FBI Director Kenneth Kaiser, the bureau's criminal division chief, says gangs have largely followed the migration paths of immigrant laborers.

He says the groups are moving to avoid the scrutiny of larger metropolitan police agencies in places such as Los Angeles. "These groups were hit hard in L.A." by law enforcement crackdowns, "but they are learning from it," Kaiser says.

MS-13 far-flung from L.A. incubator

One group that continues to spread despite law enforcement efforts is the violent Salvadoran gang known as MS-13.

Michael Sullivan, the departing director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, says the gang's dependence on shocking violence to advance extortion, prostitution and other criminal enterprises has frustrated attempts to infiltrate and disrupt the insular group's activities.

"MS-13's foothold in the U.S. is expanding," Sullivan says.

Kaiser says the street gang is in 42 states, up from 33 in 2005. "Enforcement efforts have been effective to a certain extent, but they (gang members) keep moving," he says.

MS-13 is the abbreviation for the gang also known as Mara Salvatrucha. The group gained national prominence in the 1980s in Los Angeles, where members were linked to incidents involving unusual brutality.

Since then, it has formed cells or "cliques" across the U.S., says Aaron Escorza, chief of the FBI's MS-13 National Gang Task Force.

The task force was launched in 2004 amid concerns about the gang's rapid spread. Gang members were targeted in broad investigations similar to those used to bust organized crime groups from Russia and Italy.

Among law enforcement efforts:

•Omaha: The last of 24 MS-13 members swept up on federal firearms charges and conspiracy to distribute methamphetamine were sentenced last year in the largest bust since the group emerged there in 2004.

The gang's strength dimmed as a result, but the nine-month probe did not eradicate the group, says Ferrell, who assisted in the investigation.

•Nashville: During the last two years, 14 MS-13 members pleaded guilty on charges ranging from murder to obstruction of justice.

Davidson County, Tenn., Sheriff Daron Hall, whose jurisdiction includes Nashville, says MS-13 started growing there about five years ago, corresponding with an influx of immigrant labor.

Last April, county officials began checking the immigration status of all arrestees. "We know we have removed about 100 gang members, including MS-13," to U.S. authorities for deportation, Hall says.

•Maryland: Earlier this month, federal authorities said they had convicted 42 MS-13 members since 2005. More than half were charged in a "racketeering conspiracy" in which members participated in robberies and beatings and arranged the murders of other gang members, according to Justice Department documents.

In one case, Maryland gang members allegedly discussed killing rivals with an MS-13 leader calling on a cellphone from a Salvadoran jail, the documents say.

Escorza says a "revolving door" on the border has kept the gang's numbers steady — about 10,000 in the U.S. — even as many illegal immigrant members are deported.

The FBI, which has two agents in El Salvador to help identify and track members in Central America and the United States, plans to dispatch four more agents to Guatemala and Honduras, Escorza says.

"They evolve and adapt," he says. "They know what law enforcement is doing. Word of mouth spreads quickly."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm

[TAB]

Keep them in jail? Obliterate gangs with extreme prejudice once and for all?

you and I both know that will not work.

[Ping]

There is no waiting period in Indiana. Apparently that goes for some of the criminals too cause I just read where a handgun was stolen on the north end of town and a shotgun stolen on the southside. Hmmm, you think the perp knew the victim since it was the only thing stolen???  Not much super sloothing to go on there but it is sickening how people with CCW's are treated with disrespect and sometimes contempt. Funny how we went through the background checks that we paid for and were granted permission to carry a firearm legally.

[Sponsor]

[m25operator]

I kinda want to work backward on this, been thinking about it a long time.

1) When you graduate high school, provided your not a felon at that time, you are given an ID card that shows all of your rights, constitutionally, 1st, 2nd 4th, 10th, and all the other bill of rights. As you go through life and prosper or f''ck up, your card loses rights, or does not change. You must present this card, to vote, purchase a gun, etc... And if your dumb, maybe as you lose these rights, you get the big picture, as they get crossed off your card, and decide, " I don't want to lose any more ".

2) If you are a Felon, you get a flourescent tattoo, that those that need to know can shine a black light on, and it will show up, not visible to the naked eye, but visible  under the black light, therefore you have lost rights, and cannot use just an ID to get through, an individual can use this technology, and cheap. Not just a dealer at a gunshow.

3) Of course I would prefer, that felons had tattoo's on their foreheads, and we all know who they are, but I also believe in a 2nd chance and regaining your rights, if you pay your debt. That is why I like the Flourescent tattoo.

[Fatman]

you and I both know that will not the government doesn't have the stones to do something that will  work.

Fixed that for you.

[fightingquaker13]

Fixed that for you.

Fixed indeed, however you missed the one solution that will work, and work quickly. End drug prohition. This will deny them revenue, an incentive to use violence to protect their stashes and said revenue, and basically reduce them to nothing more than bunch of loser kids with bad attitudes, as opposed to a multi-billion dollar business. And you're right, the govrnment doesn't have the stones to do it as it would be admitting that the policy we've been following since the Harrison Act passed in 1914 doesn't work. We can't let a little thing reality intrude on 100 years of wishful thinking.
FQ13

[Pathfinder]

There is no waiting period in Indiana. Apparently that goes for some of the criminals too cause I just read where a handgun was stolen on the north end of town and a shotgun stolen on the southside. Hmmm, you think the perp knew the victim since it was the only thing stolen???  Not much super sloothing to go on there but it is sickening how people with CCW's are treated with disrespect and sometimes contempt. Funny how we went through the background checks that we paid for and were granted permission to carry a firearm legally.

You want contempt?

I have been attending our County Sheriff's Citizen Academy, a free 13-week program for the citizen to see some of the inside of the Sheriff's daily life, including a tour of the jail inside the bars (only it's a fairly new jail, no bars). Last night was patrol and traffic stops. So what do I - the shy and retiring type - decide to do? I put the question we have debated here to the 5 officers in attendance. If you stop a CCW  holder, do you want to know right away? I was appalled at the responses from the younger officers.

Basically, they said they would remove you from the car, cuff you, secure the weapon and then finish the stop. If you proved to be a good guy, then they would uncuff you and send you on their way. The sole rationalization was that they will be going home safe at the end of the day. They tried to justify it by saying you might be a criminal - to which I responded with the facts from here and elsewhere that basically the CCW holders are the good guys. They seemed surprised at the push-back. When I reinforced what the laws say, one of them - a field training officer no less - announced that there was not a jury who would find against him for cuffing a driver with a gun. Again, the officer was going home at the end of the day.

The older officers agreed - only mildly so IMHO - quoting officer safety.

So here we have officers sworn to uphold the law who feel it is acceptable to violate a citizen and violate the overriding law just so they can feel safe and because they can get away with it. Interesting that one of the civilians in the class backed them up.

I think I have an answer to my unasked question about the officers' willingness to follow illegal orders such as to confiscate firearms if the treaty bho is pushing is ratified.

[fightingquaker13]

You want contempt?

I have been attending our County Sheriff's Citizen Academy, a free 13-week program for the citizen to see some of the inside of the Sheriff's daily life, including a tour of the jail inside the bars (only it's a fairly new jail, no bars). Last night was patrol and traffic stops. So what do I - the shy and retiring type - decide to do? I put the question we have debated here to the 5 officers in attendance. If you stop a CCW  holder, do you want to know right away? I was appalled at the responses from the younger officers.

Basically, they said they would remove you from the car, cuff you, secure the weapon and then finish the stop. If you proved to be a good guy, then they would uncuff you and send you on their way. The sole rationalization was that they will be going home safe at the end of the day. They tried to justify it by saying you might be a criminal - to which I responded with the facts from here and elsewhere that basically the CCW holders are the good guys. They seemed surprised at the push-back. When I reinforced what the laws say, one of them - a field training officer no less - announced that there was not a jury who would find against him for cuffing a driver with a gun. Again, the officer was going home at the end of the day.

The older officers agreed - only mildly so IMHO - quoting officer safety.

So here we have officers sworn to uphold the law who feel it is acceptable to violate a citizen and violate the overriding law just so they can feel safe and because they can get away with it. Interesting that one of the civilians in the class backed them up.

I think I have an answer to my unasked question about the officers' willingness to follow illegal orders such as to confiscate firearms if the treaty bho is pushing is ratified.

Amen, and thank you pathfinder. Cops (speaking politically not personally) are a necessary evil. By that I mean that it is less than ideal to have armed agents of the state running around with the power to ruin your life, however it is necessary due to criminals. The problem is that the folks who wear the badge are just like us. They are just humans with same the fears, prejudices etc. It is unreasonable (or just flat stupid) to expect heroism or flawless morals. Sometimes you get both, but just like for us, its the exception. Expect the police to obey the law, follow orders, give an honest days work and ensure that they go home alive at the end of the shift. Expect anything more and you're kidding yourself.
FQ13