felons and background checks...

[alfsauve]

Just about every  right has some sort of delay with it.  Want to march on washington?  guess what you need a permit, pay a large fee and give them months notice before hand.
Want to form a chruch that is not a biz?  guess what, more paper work, a back ground check and a even longer wait.

I've marched on DC.  Actually around the White House.  Gave a protest symbol.  I did not have to obtain permission before I did so and I was not arrested, not even stopped and questioned, even though it was in plain sight of the SS.   Nor did I have to get permission to travel to DC.   I help start a church and did not have to obtain permission to meet.   I've also published newspapers (okay the were more like newsletters) and distributed them without requesting any permission, without any waiting period and without paying taxes or fees.   To my knowledge the "stamp act" went out in 1776.   

I know there are tax, zoning and safety laws but the basic individual right to free speech is not restricted or delayed anywhere near the manner of  the RKBA.

I don't think I'm missing the point.   Felons have forfeited their rights.  The problem is under the current system, it is the innocent citizen who is now considered guilty until a government bureaucracy gives it's approval.    Because others commit crimes it is I who must prove my innocence.  And this system (NICs) can be used down the road to completely halt all gun sales if the government wants to flex it's muscle.  (One reason "they" want NICs to cover ALL transfers is so they can effectively stop all transfers.)

So let me ask how would you keep felons form legally buying guns?

It's so simple.  We've already done it.  We (our reps) passed a law that makes it illegal for felons to possess a firearm.    (I'm not making fun of your typo.)   It's the same way we keep people from committing murder, robbery and mayhem.    May I ask that you let that soak in.   We have laws against all of these things. There is no way to really "prevent" them ahead of time.  As a society we can impose severe penalties  for committing these activities and hope that for the majority of the time it will prevent their occurrence.   

NICs and background checks place a presumption of guilt on law-abiding citizens.  I do not accept that.  I do not believe we are any safer now with we were in pre-GCA'68.  (heck even pre-'34) 

[alfsauve]

I realize that the previous post reads rather "sternly". 

TAB, I didn't mean it to sound like a personal attack.  I just used your quotes 'cause they were a convenient jumping off point to spout my say.  The word "you" should be taken in the plural.

I obviously do feel rather strongly about presumptive guilt issue, but it wasn't personal.

[fightingquaker13]

I realize that the previous post reads rather "sternly". 

TAB, I didn't mean it to sound like a personal attack.  I just used your quotes 'cause they were a convenient jumping off point to spout my say.  The word "you" should be taken in the plural.

I obviously do feel rather strongly about presumptive guilt issue, but it wasn't personal.

The presumptive guilt thing, ie. wanting the background check but not the waiting period for CCW holders was mine not TABs. And there is no need to apologize, we just disagree.
FQ13

[True_Texan]

I'm not sure yu understand how the the NCIS check works.  its just a list of people that can not own guns, if your on the list, you can't buy a gun.

I also disagree with CCW?CHL/ what ever you want to call it expemting you.   for the simple reason that the back gorund check was done a long time ago.  things happen.

I am well aware of how it works. After re-reading my post, I can see how I didn't make the points I wanted, clearly. It seems to happen to me when I stay up till 3AM reading things. What I meant by my comment was that it is easy to provide false identification and information to obtain a firearm through a legal source. (I should have just said that instead of trying to make a joke about the paperwork.) In the end, it does provide a very small amount of help in keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals. Even if it is 0.01%, it's better then nothing. They will always find a way to get around laws, that's why they are called criminals.

I also want to make it clear, that I really don't have any problems with the background checks being done at the time of sale for those who haven't spent the time, money, and effort that is takes to get a carry permit. But the speed of how long it sometimes can take is what bothers me. There were many times when I was in different gun shops and people, honest law-abiding people (sometimes personal friends), would get a delay on the check. They would have to wait for the dealer to contact them once he received the okay. It could take an hour or it could take days to hear back. I would just like to see any upgrade in the system to keep it efficient.

Note: Slow reply on my part... So much good stuff on these forums, I can barely keep up.

[billt]

The 4473 form itself is indeed a joke in it's current state. It is executed by the purchaser, at the gun counter, with zero information that can be trusted. The current "background check" is time consuming, is many times falsely rejected or delayed, and as was pointed out, no criminal with a minimal amount of grey matter between his ears would be stupid enough to submit to one.

Look at firearm purchases before the 4473 form existed, (pre 1968). There were no school shootings. Far less gang violence to citizens, and zero guns found in schools themselves. A kid growing up in the 60's wouldn't even entertain the thought of bringing a gun into school. Now it happens on a daily basis, forms, background checks, and all.

What is wrong is society itself, and no amount of laws, background checks, or badmouthing of firearms will change it. We need something to blame. First in the 70's it was the "Saturday Night Special", what ever the hell that was. Now it's "Assault Weapons". In another decade they'll find some other buzz word to blame it on. Lousy parenting along with a deteriorating educational system and family values that are all but non existent, is what is bringing all of this about. Anyone with working sexual organs can reproduce children. We have seen it takes far more to be a parent, and checking a few boxes on a yellow piece of paper won't make up for that responsibility.  Bill T.

[Sponsor]

[Timothy]

What I meant by my comment was that it is easy to provide false identification and information to obtain a firearm through a legal source.

Not possible to falsify a fingerprint though.  I have to give my right index print for every firearm purchase in addition to the three forms to fill out, I assumed that was all states but I guess not.

[Pathfinder]

Not possible to falsify a fingerprint though.  I have to give my right index print for every firearm purchase in addition to the three forms to fill out, I assumed that was all states but I guess not.

What state is that? I had to give prints for my CCW, but not for purchases. Without CCW prints aren't required either.

[Timothy]

What state is that? I had to give prints for my CCW, but not for purchases. Without CCW prints aren't required either.

Massachusetts...required for the license and all purchases of firearms, every time.  Got a little "booger hook" scanner on a USB to the PC linked to the State.  I assumed that was a national system.  I've only had a CCW in one other state as a resident, that was CT back in 85 which predates all this latest crap.

[alfsauve]

The 4473 form itself is indeed a joke in it's current state. It is executed by the purchaser, at the gun counter, with zero information that can be trusted.

You misunderstand the purpose of the 4473.   It isn't meant to directly prevent unlawful purchases at point-of-sale as much as it is the tool with which they use to prosecute later.  Many federal crimes aren't prosecuted directly, but are prosecuted either as lying under oath or falsifying information on federal forms.   So the 4473 is what they prosecute you with later.  Been to federal court seen it in action.   Guy was buying 5 guns at a time, taking them to DC and selling them on the street.  He was prosecuted for lying on form 4473.  The pre-trial debate was whether he should be charged with 5 counts per form (five guns per form) or only 1 count per form.  Note also that the gun itself, isn't required as evidence.  Only the form. 

The form itself doesn't stop anyone bent on criminal activity.  It does however place yet another barrier to the exercise of innocent citzens' right to keep and bear arms.

[alfsauve]

................and zero guns found in schools themselves. A kid growing up in the 60's wouldn't even entertain the thought of bringing a gun into school.

Actually, growing up in that time frame (graduated HS in '66) we took guns to school all the time.  Took them to show and tell.   Took my dad's pistol as a prop gun for drama.  Also had them in the car/truck for hunting before or after school.  I wasn't on the trap/skeet team, but the students that were regularly brought their guns into first period study hall to clean.

The difference was there was no nefarious purpose.   The presence of guns themselves was not a problem.   The moral standard was much higher and the propensity towards violence much lower.