C O M W E C

[Rastus]

Appears to me we're rapidly approaching the crossroads of what may be a COMplete Meltdown of WEstern Civilization. 

Are there any students of History or actual Historians who can list things that have preceded the downfall of past great civilizations that seem to parallel contemporary events?  A few things come to mind for me, a loss of sense of destiny or purpose, a focus on self, various forms of debauchery.

[PegLeg45]

A few things come to mind for me, a loss of sense of destiny or purpose, a focus on self, various forms of debauchery.

The inability to notice the downward spiral of morality, in and of itself, all the while thinking that it is 'normal' behavior.




This country has been treading that ever-descending spiral staircase for a while now, I'm afraid.........and pickin' up speed.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_aJnQPPi8

[fightingquaker13]

And Lo! The earth stood still! Rastus and I seem to agree, though I will focus more on policy than morality, though the two are linked.
1 Imperial overreach- the dominant power expends great amounts of resources on the military/foriegn aid to maintain the international status quo while everyone else free rides and resents the dominant power. Unable to challenge it directly they exacerbate petty nuicances to exacerbate the drain of blood and treasure. The agenda is to benefit from the empire, while weakening it and baring none of the costs.
2 The reliance on mercenaries. In days of old it was for troops, now its labor and industrial capability. Whether this is outsourcing factories to the 3rd world or "insourcing' illegalls who will work for a 3rd world wage here at home, the result is the same.
3 cultural suicide. I'm not going to get into a debate about conservative vs socially liberal values. The point is about taking in immigrants without insisting they learn and assimilate to the language and culture of the host nation
4 Pride The 1st manifestation of this is that we can do no wrong. The 2nd is that we can do no right and all the world's problems are our fault. They are both lethal.When we cease to defend our values, criticize orselves openly when we fall fall short OR make excuse for others when they violate them we are doomed.
5 Low birth rates. If we don't reproduce ourselves at replacement value, who will?
6  Relying on credit in good times to buy votes for bread and circuses. Debts in the '80s and now are excusable, in the '90s and early '00s inexcusable.
The list goes on, but none of it is good.
FQ13

[twyacht]

Sounds like Nero. er, .. uh,.. BHO...

[fightingquaker13]

Sounds like Nero. er, .. uh,.. BHO...

And Clinton and W. Maybe reread the post, it wasn't a partisan critique. Why did Clinton borrow? How many GOP defiect budgets did W. veto (zero is the answer). This is about the arrogance of power and how empires fall. Its about chanting USA USA, America's number 1! ,   While failing to remember how we got here in the first place. (I think June 6th is a good day to raise that point). The enemy isn't a poitical party. Its not social liberals or social conservatives (as both are very AmericanJefferson and Thoreau on the one hand Hamilton and Teddy Roosevelt on the other), its about forgetting the classical liberal foundations of this republic, found in the Constitution, the Declaration, the Federalist AND Anti-federalist papers, Walt Whitman, Lincoln, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin and others.
FQ13

[Sponsor]

[twyacht]

I only needed to read it once, but the parallel's are there none the less with Nero.

Nero
Emperor of the Roman Empire

Reign    13 October, 54 – 9 June, AD 68
Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (as emperor)
Born    December 15, 37(37-12-15)
Died    June 9, 68 (aged 30)

Buried    Mausoleum of the Domitii Ahenobarbi, Pincian Hill, Rome
Wives    Claudia Octavia
Dynasty    Julio-Claudian
Father    Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus
Mother    Agrippina the Younger

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (15 December AD 37 – 9 June AD 68),[1] born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, also called Nero Claudius Caesar Drusus Germanicus, was the fifth and final Roman emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Nero was adopted by his great uncle Claudius to become heir to the throne. As Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, he succeeded to the throne on 13 October 54, following Claudius's death.

Nero ruled from 54 to 68, focusing much of his attention on diplomacy, trade, and increasing the cultural capital of the empire. He ordered the building of theaters and promoted athletic games. His reign included a successful war and negotiated peace with the Parthian Empire (58–63), the suppression of the British revolt (60–61) and improving relations with Greece. The First Roman-Jewish War (66-70) started during his reign. In 68 a military coup drove Nero from the throne. Facing execution, he committed suicide on 9 June 68.[2]

Nero's rule is often associated with tyranny and extravagance.[3] He is known for a number of executions, including those of his mother[4] and adoptive brother, as the emperor who "fiddled while Rome burned",[5] and as an early persecutor of Christians. This view is based upon the main surviving sources for Nero's reign — Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio. Few surviving sources paint Nero in a favorable light.[6] Some sources, though, including those mentioned above, portray him as an emperor who was popular with the common Roman people, especially in the East.[7]

The study of Nero is problematic as some modern historians question the reliability of ancient sources when reporting on Nero's alleged tyrannical acts.[8]

Using your words: "It wasn't a partisan critique"  Nero played the "violin" as Rome collapsed around him. Politicians today of either party are doing the same thing. And in that I think we agree....

Don't forget Thoreau... and MANY other Americans...that this generation has regrettably chose to be forgotten.

Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
Daniel Webster

Since it's June 6th, like you stated, good time to raise a point:

"Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grand-children are once more slaves."
D. H. Lawrence

In agreement with the premise of your OP,  the similarities I posted are there, and several civilizations went down the same road we are going now, and are nothing more than a couple of chapters in a history book.

[fightingquaker13]

Then we are in ageement. I'm not defending BHO, just pointing out that the rot has been building for years. Its not, alas, unique to us, Athens, Rome, Persia, Britian and so forth. The cultural causes vary, the structural signs remain the same. How you got the cancer varies from patient to patient, the symptoms are a constant.
FQ13

[runstowin]

Wow! I agree with FQ13 good posts.

[1911 Junkie]

Then we are in ageement. I'm not defendending BHO,just pointing out that the rot has building for years. Its not, alas, unique to us, Athens, Rome, Persia, Britian and so forth. The cultural causes vary, the structural signs remain the same. How you got the cancer varies from patient to patient, the symptoms are a constant.
FQ13

The cure is also a constant, you kill it before it kills you.

[twyacht]

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
    Henry David Thoreau

The "sheeple" of either political party will follow the masses. That's fine for those without what our Founders envisioned.


Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
Ralph Waldo Emerson '

That spirit of Emerson is left only to a few that even knew who he was.  America was never identified by complacency or appeasement.  (Oh, until now),, bash Bush for the errors he made, granted, but there was no appeasement.

Boy how times have changed,..Ask those soldiers who fought through the hedgerows at Normandy, they went where there was NO path, and generations later, there are many in this country that can't even find the trail they left for us to follow.