Scary training video

[MikeBjerum]

Path,

One of the basic rules is to make sure that no one is down range. 

As far as comparing it to a 'show' like Mundan, well that's pretty weak.  How many years has the photog practiced with those people and vis versa?

I fail to see any reason to have a photog in that position.  Remotes will do it just fine.

You need to remember that the only danger isn't coming out of the muzzle.  There is the possibility of frags off anything hard downrange.  This weekend was my first experience with media at the range.  I was amazed at the amount of time spent during the round repositioning these people.  Every possibility was considered, and they were always on the move further and further back.

There was no reason for this guy to be there in this situation ... PERIOD!

[tt11758]

I couldn't help but notice a cameraman standing beside one of two targets that Jerry Miculek was shooting during last night's broadcast of "Impossible Shots" on Outdoor Television.  At first I thought my imagination was playing tricks no me, after viewing this thread earlier in the evening, but after rewinding the DVR I realized that this idiot really WAS standing there when Jerry fired!!

[Hazcat]

I couldn't help but notice a cameraman standing beside one of two targets that Jerry Miculek was shooting during last night's broadcast of "Impossible Shots" on Outdoor Television.  At first I thought my imagination was playing tricks no me, after viewing this thread earlier in the evening, but after rewinding the DVR I realized that this idiot really WAS standing there when Jerry fired!!

On that program in general they do a lot of 'down the barrel' shots.  I always find it disturbing.

[USSA-1]

I guess it's time to jump in.

IMHO, the photographer was trying to ramp up his "Been there, done that" credibility.  

After reading some of the posted comments, I can certainly appreciate the perspective of some that the world is a 360 degree fight and that circumstances may develop that cause either you or innocent bystanders to be in the line of fire.  The real question is how do we take the skills needed in a 360 degree fight and bring them to the 180 degree square range.  Standing downrange while someone shoots live ammunition by or near you is one method, but it is also reserved for the highest skill level practioners.  Short of actually being shot while wearing body armor, there is no higher level of training.  The fact that it is reserved for only the highest levels of training shows the level of respect that most instructors/trainer have for the drill.

In the video, the photographer wasn't conducting training, he was trying to get a cool picture, nothing else.  To put those two students, who, in my opinion, were clearly not comfortable and based on the video, were not highly skilled practioners, in that position is highly irresponsible.  It was done, quite stupidly, as a way to enhance the instructors ego and "tactical" credentials.  

All instructors have two primary responsibilities.  One, to provide the most realistic training possible and two, to provide that training in the safest possible manner.  As the realism of training increases, the danger associated with it also increases.  Realistic firearms training is dangerous.  As instructors, we should constantly ask ourselves, Is there a safer way to accomplish the type of training we want to provide.  In this case, there are many ways to accomplish what the photographer wanted.  Remote camera's, dummy rounds, a more controlled environment, etc.

This was nothing more than a stunt.  Stunts are cool to watch, when the work.  When they go wrong, people get seriously hurt or killed.  

Things worked out this time, but eventually the odds will catch up with you.

USSA-1

[Hazcat]

Nice to hear an expert, USSA-1 (especially when they agree with me )

[Sponsor]

[Pathfinder]

You need to remember that the only danger isn't coming out of the muzzle.  There is the possibility of frags off anything hard downrange.  This weekend was my first experience with media at the range.  I was amazed at the amount of time spent during the round repositioning these people.  Every possibility was considered, and they were always on the move further and further back.

There was no reason for this guy to be there in this situation ... PERIOD!

Believe me, I understand all of that, I've had ricochets whiz past me. However, the 4 rules I am aware of are best stated on Fred's Appleseed site, are:

ONE: ALL firearms are to be unloaded at all times except when on the firing line, after the shooter has prepped and been given the "LOAD" command. "Unloaded" means bolt locked back, safety on, mag out, and grounded on shooting mat or rifle rack.

TWO: MUZZLES are to be pointed in a SAFE DIRECTION at ALL TIMES. (The GOLDEN RULE of gun safety.)

THREE: You never touch the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you are ready to fire the shot.

FOUR: You make sure everyone around you complies with these rules.

I do see the argument that the photographer downrange is a violation of Rule #2 - maybe. Personally, I think was a stupid thing to do with a video camera around, and "just" for cool pictures. But it does not violate the letter of the rules per se - if you're not pointing at the photog, then it is "safe". 

FWIW - I am not justifying the behavior at all, I have said here, and in my previous posts, that this is a dumb, stupid move.

[Hazcat]

Believe me, I understand all of that, I've had ricochets whiz past me. However, the 4 rules I am aware of are best stated on Fred's Appleseed site, are:

ONE: ALL firearms are to be unloaded at all times except when on the firing line, after the shooter has prepped and been given the "LOAD" command. "Unloaded" means bolt locked back, safety on, mag out, and grounded on shooting mat or rifle rack.

TWO: MUZZLES are to be pointed in a SAFE DIRECTION at ALL TIMES. (The GOLDEN RULE of gun safety.)

THREE: You never touch the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you are ready to fire the shot.

FOUR: You make sure everyone around you complies with these rules.

I do see the argument that the photographer downrange is a violation of Rule #2 - maybe. Personally, I think was a stupid thing to do with a video camera around, and "just" for cool pictures. But it does not violate the letter of the rules per se - if you're not pointing at the photog, then it is "safe". 

FWIW - I am not justifying the behavior at all, I have said here, and in my previous posts, that this is a dumb, stupid move.

Path,

I was talking about my RO training, both in the military and as a civilian. "Is there any one down range..."

[ericire12]

Here is the bottom line:

There are two very different issues here with this video, and Bane and USSAA-1 have summed them up the best.

1. For those who think this a necessary way to train in order to "feel what it is like to be shot at" are idiots. They are taking an enormous risk with little to no tangible benefit. As Bane said, there are many places out there that offer force on force training in shoot houses that will give you far more beneficial training and at the same time negate almost 100% of the risk -- or hell, I say just go play some paintball!

2. This is not about training. As USSAA-1 points out, this is just a photographer trying to get "Tacti-cool pictures". He too is an idiot, because he is risking bodily harm or death just to get a photo. Yes, many photographers risk their lives to get other various photos everyday all around the world.... BUT, in this case it is an unnecessary risk. As it has been stated earlier, he could just use a remote, or have the group pose there with empty guns, and he could still get the same shots (minus casings flying through the air). I cant fault him, though. Its his life and his career, and he has to make the decision as to what chances he wants to take in order to get the shot he wants. Blame should be placed on the Range Officer who decided this was an acceptable behavior at his range, and also on the shooters who decided that it was ok to discharge their firearms in the with someone downrange.     

[jaybet]

What really bothers me about this whole thing is that the shooters even participated! I and most people I know would have walked off the line. What the hell are they thinking?
This is stupid piled on stupid.

[MikeBjerum]

What really bothers me about this whole thing is that the shooters even participated! I and most people I know would have walked off the line. What the hell are they thinking?
This is stupid piled on stupid.

I have watched the video several times as I read responses.  These are not new shooters or shooters new to ranges.  Look at the way the handle their guns, do their reloads and assess the situation.  Grips, stance, finger out of trigger guard, awareness (for everything except the stupid mammal between the targets) ...  I would like to hear the info and instructions given prior to this stunt.