Combat Focus Shooting - Just watched the DVD

[D-Man]

Rob,
     Just watched the Advanced Personal Defense - Combat Focus Shooting DVD and the Unorthodox shooting positions DVD.  Also a couple of weeks ago I was watching the teaching going on out at Burro Canyon before the main range opened.  The CFS system is all about reaction and using the body's natural reaction to our advantage in a Dynamic Critical Incident.  One thing that I noticed when startled is that I instantly "blade" away while my hands go up.  That leads to a natural Weaver style grip when I draw my weapon.  You seem to show everybody squaring to the target and shooting that way.  My question is does the CFS system allow for a "weaver" style stance?  I like the racking of the slide from the high ready position and a lot of your other ideas that I have been practicing.  Moving off of the "X" has always been one of the basics that I work on constantly.  In fact, going to a square range and not being able to move feels unnatural now.

Curious to hear your feedback.

[fitebak]

Pending Rob's response I'll offer some of my experience with your question. I recently took CFS and Advanced Handgun from one of Rob's instructors. I was previously trained in the weaver stance and have used it for years. I now believe I shoot more accurately and with more consistency using the full and equal arm extension that CFS teaches. That's not to say the Weaver is not useful in some cases for some people; many good shooters use it.

While you believe you will blade a bit in dynamic incident, CFS teaches that the stance is not paramount - you may be caught in any number of positions and the slightly lowered stance and full arm extension can take place from a number of positions IMO. I think you can shoot the CFS method even when you find yourself in a blade position. There is also a difference in standing bladed when with unknown people (did it for years as a paramedic and in a martial art) but that is not the same as what we may do in a dynamic critical incident. In any case CFS really cleaned up my technique and reduced the number of options I have to consider in a critical incident. I have practiced the unorthodox positions at home and on the range. The full arm extension is useful in more situations IMO. Even when shooting one handed the shoulder extension helps stabilize the shot.

I will also be interested in Rob's response to your question. Just my thoughts and they may not characterize CFS accurately. Like you I am practicing more realistically.

[Rob Pincus]

First: Great Response, Fitebak. Glad you got some good info and had a good experience in your course! Feel free to let everyone know who you trained with!

D-man,

Thanks for checking out the DVDs. I'm not sure who was teaching out in LA, but I'm sure it was Viking Combatives. Some of their instructors are the guys that I fly around the country when I need to augment the I.C.E. staff. They are top notch.

Let me say that I LOVE this statement:

In fact, going to a square range and not being able to move feels unnatural now.

It is something that most of our students start noticing pretty quickly. Standing still while drawing or reloading without a nice piece of cover just doesn't make sense...

What FB posted is a pretty good summation of our thoughts on the WEaver issue. While I have had students get through a 2 day course and still be fighting (perceivedly or not) going to weaver, we find that most people break that habit pretty quick. Part of breaking the habit is understanding intellectually why it is probably inconsistent with your body's natural reactions under extreme stress/surprise. In the absence of training, people will lower their center of gravity in response to being threatened or surprised. This is a natural instinct and it prepares us to move. This lowering of the center of gravity (bending at the knees, specifically) is necessary to move into a bladed position... so, what many people consider "automatic", is actually a learned SECOND STEP after a stimulus response. For this reason we identify it as inefficient.
As noted by FB, it is certainly possible that you will be attacked in a circumstance where you DO NOT blade (seated, for example) and we want your training to be as consistent as possible with a worst case scenario, not a best case.
Lastly (for now, at least!), while the isometric tension created by pulling back on the gun with the weak hand DOES increase deviation control, it does so at a rather huge cost in  terms of bio-mechanical simplicity and consistency between 1 handed and 2 handed shooting. We know empirically that MANY defensive shootings are conducted 1 handed instead of 2, even when the second hand is available. One of my theories is that the brain intuitively recognizes that most people take a relatively long time to create the weaver grip, and that process is skipped in response to an actual threat. Regardless of the validity of that theory, training to get a quick and convenient support hand onto the gun while the gun is in motion from the holster to the threat with a strong hand position and body position that is consistent for either 1 or 2 handed shooting seems to be easy for people to learn and execute efficiently under stress.

Keep in mind that we sometimes have to suffer through un-training bad habits before we can become "comfortable" with new, more efficient, techniques.

Thanks for the question!

-RJP

[D-Man]

Thank you for the explanation on the stance.  In fact, I do practice shooting one handed with both strong and weak hand for those "just in case" scenarios.  Even have been working with friends on doing a game of "horse" on various ranges (without breaking safety rules).  Such as, weak hand smaller target on the left, two shots, etc...  Just to make us work harder and force ourselves out of a comfort zone.  Your unorthodox shooting positions DVD gave great examples of also shooting one handed and emphasizing the need for that full arm extension.  The isometric triangle is something that I can do, at this point it just doesn't feel natural.  Maybe it was all those years of football and military.  I still see the value in what you are saying though, and that is why I asked the question.  Will keep watching and working to absorb all that I can.

 

[fitebak]

My instructor was John Brown with I.C.E. He is an excellent, excellent instructor if you get the opportunity. Spec Ops background, former Valhalla instructor, Cross Fit instructor, invites questions and never hesitates to explain the CF method and why it works based on real world data. Would like to take a refresher sometime with him now that I have practiced what he taught and continue to delve into these techniques. He is one of the instructors/demonstrators in some of Rob's DVDs. And BTW D-Man, Semper Fi to you to.

[Sponsor]

[Rob Pincus]

Excellent, D-man.

Thanks, FB!

-RJP

[Ping]

After shooting with the Weaver stance for over twenty years I was able to learn the 360 degree grip in a matter of minutes while taking the Combat Focus Shooting Course a few days ago. I went in with an open mind and listened to what Paul White and Rob Pincus had to say. My follow up shots were more accurate than they have ever been. One drill where you are to make one hole with multiple shots I have never been able to perform before. I did alright the first day, but the second day I did it one handed with my weak hand. I was amazed and will continue on with what I learned from ICE Training and CFS.
If you ever get the opportunity to take Combat Focus Shooting, I would highly suggest it. You get your moneys worth and then some.