The Constitution in 2020?

[tombogan03884]

  Continued

 author=fightingquaker13 link=topic=8036.msg102460#msg102460 date=1248782856]
Path, if you READ my posts, rather than just assuming (would it be cruel to quote myself from the above post "(again, I ain't a proggressive, I just hate hate ideologically motivated itellectual laziness)( Then why do you practice it ?)" probably, but you deserve it on this one. ; you will note that not once but but twice did I say I wasn't a proggessive. The point is, that idiots of both parties try to make American political history black and white and assume that ideology is static when it changes drastically over decades. Picture Pat Robertson as in favor of national health care or Pelosi as pro-life and that's what you had at the turn of the last century. As far as the speech, read it. Eat your spinach, its one of the most important summations of the city vs country, corporation vs small business, free trade vs protectionism arguements ever made in American politics.Issues that are particularly pertinant to NAFTA, WTO, illegal immigration etc. Doubt me?( There is no need to doubt you, Bryans multiple defeats give the lie to your thinking he was any thing more than a political hack who managed ONE good delivery. "In a typical day he gave four hourlong speeches and shorter talks that added up to six hours of speaking. At an average rate of 175 words a minute, he turned out 63,000 words, enough to fill 52 columns of a newspaper. In Wisconsin, he once made 12 speeches in 15 hours." at that rate you would think more than one speech would have been worth remembering) Google Cross of Gold and see what you get. Here' a quote for a good Dakota Boy:

You come to us and tell us that the great cities are in favor of the gold standard. I tell you that the great cities rest upon these broad and fertile prairies. Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic. But destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country.


Just sayin'.
FQ13

[fightingquaker13]

 Never said I supported him Tom. He was wrong on the economy and wrong on evolution. My point was and is that America has its own brand of non-marxist leftism, just as we have a non-facist right. Trying to bring in European models, muddys the waters. Dont see progressive and think commie. Its as misleading as hearing folks like Tancredo or Dobson and saying Nazi. Bryan was the spokesman for a very broad movement in America that still exists. There's a reason the Mn. Dem party is Known as the  Democratic Farmer Labor Party. It was a history lesson, NOT a political endorsement.
FQ13 PS he was Sec State and the Dems nominee for pres. He had serious support at the time

[tombogan03884]

Never said I supported him Tom. He was wrong on the economy and wrong on evolution. My point was and is that America has its own brand of non-marxist leftism, just as we have a non-facist right. Trying to bring in European models, muddys the waters. Dont see progressive and think commie. Its as misleading as hearing folks like Tancredo or Dobson and saying Nazi. Bryan was the spokesman for a very broad movement in America that still exists. There's a reason the Mn. Dem party is Known as the  Democratic Farmer Labor Party. It was a history lesson, NOT a political endorsement.
FQ13 PS he was Sec State and the Dems nominee for pres. He had serious support at the time

You are missing the whole frigging point.
1) All modern socialists derive from the writings of Marx , Engels, and Lenin.With some Mao thrown in.
2) Socialism and Fascism are NOT left and right, both are totalitarian the only difference is that Fascists want to apply socialist principles to ONE country while Socialists (Actually Communists ) wish to apply it to ALL countries Hence the Nazi, National Socialists, and the Soviet INTERNATIONAL Socialists. on the political spectrum the far right is actually Anarchy with no Govt at all.
3) Conservative is a RELATIVE term that can be applied with in ANY SYSTEM at all.
Obama, with his program of bringing America in line with Pan European socialism, is a Communist, or international Socialist. (They have their own conservative faction that fears backlash and wants to advance their agenda at a slower pace )

[fightingquaker13]

You are missing the whole frigging point.
1) All modern socialists derive from the writings of Marx , Engels, and Lenin.With some Mao thrown in.

Untrue. Look, Marx didn't come up with socialism, go back to the llevelers (not a typo) and many Christian movements. Dorothy Day being a good progressive era reprentative in the US. Also remember the IWW. They got lumped in with the commies, but rejected Marx's politics, though not his economics, and insisted on an anarchist, not totalitarian view. Again, I'm a capitalist and reject them all, but I do think the idea of socialist=marxist just is plain inaccurate. Even with the right, there IS a strong authoritarian streak here in the US, but its very different from the European versions (except the neo-nazi/Christian identity types, who ape it). America is a weird and interesting place, and that is true of our non-mainstream politics. Don't just make assumptions until you read their lit, and it is facinatinating and bizare as hell. Those old political manifestos are a great way to spend a rainy day if you are a bored history geek.
FQ13

[Teresa Heilevang]

Waaaay too much....................my head is spinning..I'm dizzy and my eyes are crossed and blurred. Would I understand it is someone told me about it on short form ? or should I just skip over it and......well you know.........go on to something else..

Yeah.. I thought so............... ....**turning the page to another thread*

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Waaaay too much....................my head is spinning..I'm dizzy and my eyes are crossed and blurred. Would I understand it is someone told me about it on short form ? or should I just skip over it and......well you know.........go on to something else..

Yeah.. I thought so............... ....**turning the page to another thread*

If you really want I can explain to you how Methodists and llevelers (I've also seen it spelled with one L influenced Colonial America and helped pave the way for the Revolution, but like the abolitionists their influence did not survive the Constitution.
Mean while I'm trying to read and listen to BS at the same time


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3GF3Woi3Sw&feature=related   

[Pathfinder]

Untrue. Look, Marx didn't come up with socialism, go back to the llevelers (not a typo) and many Christian movements. Dorothy Day being a good progressive era reprentative in the US. Also remember the IWW. They got lumped in with the commies, but rejected Marx's politics, though not his economics, and insisted on an anarchist, not totalitarian view. Again, I'm a capitalist and reject them all, but I do think the idea of socialist=marxist just is plain inaccurate. Even with the right, there IS a strong authoritarian streak here in the US, but its very different from the European versions (except the neo-nazi/Christian identity types, who ape it). America is a weird and interesting place, and that is true of our non-mainstream politics. Don't just make assumptions until you read their lit, and it is facinatinating and bizare as hell. Those old political manifestos are a great way to spend a rainy day if you are a bored history geek.
FQ13

I was talking about modern socialism and progressives which are identical in every substantive way. You dredge up a group from the English Civil War?

Socialism does not equal Marxism.
Marxism is defined as Socialism plus tyranny.

What no one seems to realize is that socialism, communism, Marxism, llevelers, Christian millennial and Utopian movements all begin as responses to some existing political reality. In most modern cases they stem from a negative response to economically divided imperial governments. In the case of socialism and communism, it was European empires, with a strong history of oligarchical class of the "haves", and a huge population of "have nots".

Contrast that to America, where nominally at least everyone has an opportunity to achieve and excel, to "make it" politically and economically. Millions have proven that opportunity exists, can be achieved. And those opportunities allowed this country grew to a point where it was able to enter a world war and make the difference to destroy Imperial and Socialist regimes on different sides of this globe simultaneously.

So the key question is - why is socialism being crammed down our throats? It is clearly not a response to economic or political limitations on people - it is being pushed by the very elites that earlier would have been destroyed.

So why socialism with its failed history of providing an effective government to its own people, not to mention the abusive and aggressive forms that have devastated this world in the past 150 years?

Answer that question and you will understand why even the minutest support for bho and his minions is a profoundly un-American action.

And, as we learned in Watergate and elsewhere, always, always always follow the money trail to who is pushing the new socialist oligarchy.

[tombogan03884]

 Recent studies have shown that member ship in the lowest 20% of wage earners in America is in constant flux. 80% of todays Lowest 20% will rise out of that group to be replaced by immigrants, legal or otherwise. This is in contrast to the class stagnation of European society.
The ones who will benefit from a Socialist America are the Members of the European Union. When Mitterand Socialized the French economy investment capital fled to other, NON socialist countries, so the French pushed for the creation of the EU with it's increasingly socialized economic policies, but that has not worked out for them as investors could still flee to the US. If Obama is successful European investors will have no refuge so they will take their money home to Europe which will necessitate more Govt involvement in controlling the economy giving the Govt. yet more control over the economy.
Another benefit for BO is that as he gives more money to the lower income 75% it leaves the entire tax burden on a mere 25% of wage earners. this will effectively remove Taxes and the economy from the Political dialog, and disenfranchise the actual tax payers who are the sources of jobs. This will give the socialist Democrats a monopoly on political power for the foreseeable future. Every action BO has taken since being anointed has been calculated to WEAKEN the economy further, paving the way for greater and greater Govt. control over the means of wealth production.