Two Informants Accuse Blackwater Founder of Murder, Other Crimes

[fightingquaker13]

You are the one letting ideology get in the way of logic, (history actually) . The use of Mercenary troops was normal until around the end of the Napoleonic wars which, in the revolutionary armies of France, saw the birth of the large scale "Citizen Army". Most places Mercenary forces were the only TRAINED troops available. While it is true that in medieval France  they often recruited bandits, it is worth noting that many of those bandits were soldiers thrown out of work by the end of the Crusades. Many mercenary units have a lasting place in history, such as Sir John Hawkwood's White Company, The Kings German Legion which served Wellington at Waterloo, and of course we must not forget the oldest mercenary company in the world, the Vatican's Swiss Guard. As to the accusations leveled against King George for using Mercenaries in America , it was poor rhetoric, just like the anti slavery accusations that he was " waging war on an innocent people". After all, Lafayette did not serve for free. In more recent times how about the British troops who served the Sultan of Oman and the other Emirites in the 60's, the Nung tribesmen we hired in Vietnam ? Or the Afghan tribes we are bribing to support us, they to are mercenaries. I won't go into the use of mercenary troops by the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires.
As to Mr. Princes sincerity since I do not know the man I will only point out that sincerity and altruistic motives do not put food on the table, and the left that you so often support have been attacking them as regularly and consistantly as they have our regular forces.
People like you have been refusing to face the hard facts of life ever since Jefferson and Madison fought the founding of the US Navy, and always for self serving reasons, in their case it had nothing to do with the practicalities (Jefferson actually favored it ) They opposed the building of a navy simply to score political points off Adams and Hamilton, NOT because they were considering what was best for the country.

Your history is correct. It does however miss the point. I simply do not believe we should privatize the power of the sword. I oppose for profit prisons for the same reason.  The bottom line is that we the people should be able to hold elected officials directly accountable for the actions of those with uniforms and guns. Thy should not have the out of saying "the contractor is to blame". Likewise, anyone who has a uniform and gun should be accountable to either the UCMJ or civil law, not given blanket immunity as Blackwater was. A US Marine was held to a higher standard in Iraq than Blackwater operatives. Thats just wrong. I have no problem with them working in the private sector as security, but they shouldn't be given the color of authority by the state. I'm not sure how this position is political in the partisan sense. Its simply a matter of principle and it wouldn't change if Prince were all he claims to be. I don't want him or anyone else like him on the payroll.
FQ13
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

I am still on the fence about private contractors.  I respect them for doing what they do, but at the same time, they are not covered under geneva convention, US law, Iraqi law, or any laws aside from their employee handbook.  I dont know...my question is, where do their loyalties lie?  If the highest bidder were Bin Laden, which side would they be fighting on then?

Just a recommendation... Read the book Outsourced by RJ Hillhouse. It even gets into how the Pentagon and CIA are spending more time watching eachother than the bad guys...

That's ALWAYS been the case, during the Cold War the CIA and FBI spent more time spying on each other than they did watching the KGB. (But then the KGB was busy keeping an eye on the GRU so it worked out    )

[Ichiban]

I understand the need but I am not a big fan of the way the "contractors" are being used.  I object to the sheer numbers involved, to the missions they are given, to the lack of oversight and accountability (a big objection as they too represent the country), and to the pay (granted I have no idea what their medical or other benefits are) in relationship to what the GIs are getting.  Still, it is not a job I would want and I believe that a large number of those doing the job are honorable and doing it for the right reasons.

And the fact that "it's been done this way since the dawn of time" does not mean that it is the right thing to do.

[tombogan03884]

"And the fact that "it's been done this way since the dawn of time" does not mean that it is the right thing to do."

The "right thing to do" is the thing that works, if this method did not work it would have been dropped 1000 years ago.
While I agree with FQ that everyone carry a gun under contract to the DOD should be accountable under the UCMJ his most telling comment is his last line, " Its simply a matter of principle and it wouldn't change if Prince were all he claims to be. I don't want him or anyone else like him on the payroll.". It doesn't matter to FQ if this is effective, efficient, or a benefit to the operation, it offends his sensibilities so it's bad.  What BS.

[fightingquaker13]

"And the fact that "it's been done this way since the dawn of time" does not mean that it is the right thing to do."

The "right thing to do" is the thing that works, if this method did not work it would have been dropped 1000 years ago.
While I agree with FQ that everyone carry a gun under contract to the DOD should be accountable under the UCMJ his most telling comment is his last line, " Its simply a matter of principle and it wouldn't change if Prince were all he claims to be. I don't want him or anyone else like him on the payroll.". It doesn't matter to FQ if this is effective, efficient, or a benefit to the operation, it offends his sensibilities so it's bad.  What BS.

Its not my sensibilities that are offended. The fact is you took an oath. It wasn't the paycheck that motivated you. Compare how people in the private sector treat their jobs with those in the military, or law enforcement. There is a huge difference (yes there are exceptions on both sides). The bottom line though is that someone carrying a gun in my name and on my dime should be oath bound to this country, not a corporation, and should be accountable to our laws. There's nothing naive about, quite the contrary. War brings out our worst instincts. An oath to country and a sense of duty reinforced by military culture helps to mitigate them. Mercenaries lack both. Its not their fault, its just that being a shift supervisor for Macwar inc. is different from being a staff seargent in the US Marine Corps. and you know it.
FQ13

[Sponsor]

[Walkeraviator]

The real kicker is that we cant torture...the solution?  Have Blackwater, Triple Canopy, KBR, and even Britich companies like Aegis do rendition flights to third party countries (many believe ex KGB prisons in former soviet republics like Uzbekistan) and torture them there out of public scrutiny.  I am not entirely opposed to this practice as the intel probably saved thousands of lives, but dont act like you aint doin it just cuz you are payin someone else to do the dirty work.

[tombogan03884]

Its not my sensibilities that are offended. The fact is you took an oath. It wasn't the paycheck that motivated you. Compare how people in the private sector treat their jobs with those in the military, or law enforcement. There is a huge difference (yes there are exceptions on both sides). The bottom line though is that someone carrying a gun in my name and on my dime should be oath bound to this country, not a corporation, and should be accountable to our laws. There's nothing naive about, quite the contrary. War brings out our worst instincts. An oath to country and a sense of duty reinforced by military culture helps to mitigate them. Mercenaries lack both. Its not their fault, its just that being a shift supervisor for Macwar inc. is different from being a staff seargent in the US Marine Corps. and you know it.
FQ13

The major reason for using "mercenaries" is that  Democrats and their "Libertarian" allies have consistently cut the military budget and manpower levels, leaving us unprepared for every single war we have ever been pulled into. The only times Democrats have ever Built up the defense establishment was when FDR wanted to needlessly involve us in Britians war in Europe, and when Johnson wanted to enrich his pals in industry by.
Therefore we suffer a severe man power shortage that , since the Democrats are against defending America and will not expand the Services, requires out side contractors.
Say what you will about Bush, he found a way to solve problems caused by stupid people who refuse to learn the lessons of history.

The real kicker is that we cant torture...the solution?  Have Blackwater, Triple Canopy, KBR, and even Britich companies like Aegis do rendition flights to third party countries (many believe ex KGB prisons in former soviet republics like Uzbekistan) and torture them there out of public scrutiny.  I am not entirely opposed to this practice as the intel probably saved thousands of lives, but dont act like you aint doin it just cuz you are payin someone else to do the dirty work.

Most of the secret Prisons were in Eastern Europe, Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, and some other countries. The "rendition" flights were some thing differant, in those cases we turned over non cooperating suspects to Arab countries WHO ALREADY HAD WARRANTS for the individuals, we do the same thing in Drug and Highjacking cases and no one minds.

[ericire12]

This is the first time I have looked at this thread....... Once I saw that it had gotten to 2 pages this quickly, I knew why before I even clicked on it........ Its just Quaker being Quaker. 

You guys are going to need a bigger wall     

[fightingquaker13]

This is the first time I have looked at this thread....... Once I saw that it had gotten to 2 pages this quickly, I knew why before I even clicked on it........ Its just Quaker being Quaker. 

You guys are going to need a bigger wall     

Eric, I respect you, so I'm just going to ask a simple question. Are you comfortable with mercenaries or contractors if you prefer, operating with legal immunity in our name? Why or why not? Me I'm not and I've said why. The floor is yours.
FQ13

[blackwolfe]

Been reading this thread and as I knew that Erik Prince was the son of the founder of the Prince Corporation of Holland, MI the city in which I work.  I know that the Prince family has done a lot for the community.  I googled and found this.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince   Quite an interesting person.

I would not be surprised at all to learn some time that Prince, Blackwater, Xe, whatever is and has been preforming blackops for the CIA and whoever.

Reminds me of a statment a friend made to me years ago when we were discussing G Gordon Liddy.  When the SHTF who do you want on your side.  I for one will take the likes of Liddy or Prince.  The other side can have the likes of Barney and Nancy.