Author Topic: Service Pistols  (Read 3820 times)

Badgersmilk

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Service Pistols
« on: September 04, 2009, 01:22:42 PM »
Speaks of 1911, M9, and auto's in general.

http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=230&Itemid=66

Read, then listen (audio at bottom article).


Badgersmilk

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2009, 01:47:42 PM »
"Whenever you clean your 1911s, check the plunger tube for movement. It could save your life."

http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=619&Itemid=1

Jackel

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2009, 10:58:10 PM »
thanks, good read.

i guess there is not much importance on sidearms for the army. think about it, your regular joe enlisted that will see combat most weeks is primarily using his M16, hence more effort is put into producing a good weapon for people that are going to use it.

the m9 on the other hand, is used by high command and REMFS, people that will never use it in combat, so there is no real reason to put money into it.

you are a redneck when You think "loading the dishwasher" means getting your wife drunk.

You know your a redneck You ever got too drunk to fish.

asanti611

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2009, 06:11:56 PM »
thanks, good read.

i guess there is not much importance on sidearms for the army. think about it, your regular joe enlisted that will see combat most weeks is primarily using his M16, hence more effort is put into producing a good weapon for people that are going to use it.

the m9 on the other hand, is used by high command and REMFS, people that will never use it in combat, so there is no real reason to put money into it.

This is a big problem for the army of many countries. Obviously an M16 o an M4 is more effective than an M9, but many soldiers can't carry an assult rifle. Those in the artillery, those who drive trucks, MBT, AIFV etc, they can't carry an assault rifle, and the only practical solution is an automatic gun (M9 or stuff like that). What is the best weapon for non combatant sodiers? It is a dilemma. Heckler Koch has designed the MP7 for this purpose, a compact weapon that use a more powerful and piercing ammo than  9x19. But unless you have an MP7 an M9 is always a useful tool in your hands. A friend of mine was ambushed in Iraq 3 years ago, and in that occasion he had only his M9. He was shot at and he shot back, and now he is still alive.
"Si vis pacem para bellum";
Tito Livio, "Ab urbe condita"

Jackel

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2009, 09:23:38 PM »
i understand, but the unlikely chance that they will ever use it is why the gov. never put any money into a decent pistol.
you are a redneck when You think "loading the dishwasher" means getting your wife drunk.

You know your a redneck You ever got too drunk to fish.

Sponsor

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #5 on: Today at 10:01:14 AM »

Combat Diver

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2009, 01:47:52 AM »
You guys need to watch the TV more.  1 out of 3 personnel are carring a M9 in both Iraq and Afghanistan.  Most of those that have a M9 usually also have a long gun.  The problem with the M9 or any pistol in the services is lack of training.  I always said that there was only three things wrong with the M1911 (which I was issued for years and carried in Iraq 03-08 and along with my M9)
1.  Sights are too small
2.  No new guns since 1945
3.  Army doesn't teach how to use a handgun

I've been trained in the offensive use of the handgun for decades but thats Special Operations and not regular Army.  Remember the Mk23 pistol for SOCOM is an offensive pistol.  Seen very few M11 9mm pistols but the majority is the M9.  During GW1 I carried a suppressed M9 along with my M16A2/M203 and again in Iraq during 03-08' (missed 07) carried either a M9, M11, M1911 or SIG 226 (contractor) along with my M4 and M79.  This year in Afghanistan I'm unarmed in my contract and will have to do a battlefield recovery in need presents itself.

Iraq: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09,15 & 16' Afghanistan: 09,10,11,14 & 17'

Combat Diver

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2009, 01:50:11 AM »
Forgot to add my son is also carrying a cocked and locked M1911A1 currently this year in Iraq.  He also has his M9 and is in Special Forces also.
Iraq: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09,15 & 16' Afghanistan: 09,10,11,14 & 17'

Harmony Hermit

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2009, 07:29:00 AM »
If current training is anything like the training when I was in (early 70's) it is abysmally bad. We were trained to fire one handed and nobody cared whether we hit the target. And this was in Infantry OCS!

The 45 (Nobody then called it a 1911 and would have been clueless if you called it that) was despised by most officers and troops who carried it because they could rarely hit what they shot at. Every "45" I ever handled was loose and rattled like a new years eve party favor. Most had been through rebuilding several times, you could count the arsenal marks all over the gun. But they always went bang and nobody complained about stopping power. The normal mantra is that if you hit the target he was down,the problem was hitting him.

The old bar challenge was "you take the 45 and I'll take an empty M14 with bayonet and we meet in high grass". We drank a lot in those days, the Army was not the high speed low drag force it is today.

I was assigned to a tank battalion in germany, and I was not a tanker (Thank god!) Because I had had grunt training I had the privilege of running the Battalion 45 familiarization range twice a year. In those days you were required to "Familiarize with your assigned weapon" at least once a year. That means you went to the range demonstrated you could load and fire the weapon at a target and hit something. No scores were kept. The range officer (Lil 'ol me) certified you could shoot without endangering yourself or your crew. Seems simple but it was a life threatening job, as  tankers are notorious for bad, no, outright dangerous gun handling. I managed not to get shot, but had to shoot for  a couple of guys who were just incompetent to handle a handgun. Pencil qualification we called it. And we had to shoot up all the ammo we drew.

Pistol marksmanship was never a priority in those days.

I would still rather have the 45...oops  I mean the 1911 than the M9.

 


asanti611

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2009, 07:52:30 AM »
You guys need to watch the TV more.  1 out of 3 personnel are carring a M9 in both Iraq and Afghanistan.  Most of those that have a M9 usually also have a long gun.  The problem with the M9 or any pistol in the services is lack of training.  I always said that there was only three things wrong with the M1911 (which I was issued for years and carried in Iraq 03-08 and along with my M9)
1.  Sights are too small
2.  No new guns since 1945
3.  Army doesn't teach how to use a handgun

I've been trained in the offensive use of the handgun for decades but thats Special Operations and not regular Army.  Remember the Mk23 pistol for SOCOM is an offensive pistol.  Seen very few M11 9mm pistols but the majority is the M9.  During GW1 I carried a suppressed M9 along with my M16A2/M203 and again in Iraq during 03-08' (missed 07) carried either a M9, M11, M1911 or SIG 226 (contractor) along with my M4 and M79.  This year in Afghanistan I'm unarmed in my contract and will have to do a battlefield recovery in need presents itself.


I watch tv and i see that many soldiers carry M9 and the assault rifle. My experience as a soldier barely compare to yours (i was a private in the italian  army in 1989 - 1990, i shot  2-3 times with M1 Garand and  Beretta BM59, and only once with Beretta 34, no operative mission), and i agree with  Combat Driver that training is  very important, but the fact is that a pistol is always a pistol, and also in very good trained soldiers an assault rifle is far more effective than a pistol. Maybe an M23 is better than an M9, but the effectiveness , in my opinion, is not so different.  The  service pistol for a regular soldier is a backup weapon, not an offensive weapon (maybe in SOF is different). I think that the assault rifle (regarding its quality and the training) is far more important.
"Si vis pacem para bellum";
Tito Livio, "Ab urbe condita"

Badgersmilk

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Re: Service Pistols
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2009, 10:20:15 AM »
As weird as this sounds.  What I found out when I was in the service was you have to request pistol training from your supervisor.  He wont point out its available, and probably doesnt even KNOW its available until you push the request.  Upon request of the class, your supervisor is resposible to get you the form.  Unless it's decided you will never have need for the training (I was an F16 chief and got aproved!), you go to the 1 day class...  It's actually pretty good!  And fun. ;D

 

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