Contractor ammo

[Ichiban]

A couple of questions for those in the know:

Are the military contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan restricted to ball ammo like the military? 

What about contractors that aren't working directly for the U.S. military?

And if you are not "in the know" feel free to opine anyway.   

These questions are a result of yet another "M9 vs. 1911" "discussion" where the point was
made that the people that are on the front-line carry a 1911 when they can.  Personally, I would
not feel under-gunned with an M9 with 124gr +P Gold Dot ammo but would (if restricted to ball ammo)
definitely prefer a 1911.  A high capacity .45 is, without a doubt, the best way to go.

[Pathfinder]

Good question. I would think (opine-ing here) that if you are official, you are using ball only. A merc probably doesn't have to follow, but you'd better not lose or you will pay a heavy price.

I remember reading the Churchill carried a broomhandle Mauser with dum-dums during the Boer War. When it looked like he was going to be captured, he dumped the gun and bullets so he would not be caught with them. It would have been a summary execution if he had been.

[2HOW]

I would think they would have to abide the "Hague convention" as our armed forces do and use only ball ammo. I may be wrong
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

[fightingquaker13]

Nope, Geneva and Hague Convention apply only to the uniformed military. Contractors (other wise known as mercenaries) have no rights, nor obligations under the Geneva Convention. They are by definition unlawful combatants and can be killed on sight. This is balanced by the fact that our enemy is made up of unlawful combatants who behead folks on video tape and so the Geneva Convention is largley BS in Afghanisitan. You just don't get captured (This is a grenade. There are many like it. This one is mine. )/ The thing is, in Iraq there are rules. In Afghanistan not so much as none of our enemies even pretend to follow them.
FQ13

[2HOW]

Nope, Geneva and Hague Convention apply only to the uniformed military. Contractors (other wise known as mercenaries) have no rights, nor obligations under the Geneva Convention. They are by definition unlawful combatants and can be killed on sight. This is balanced by the fact that our enemy is made up of unlawful combatants who behead folks on video tape and so the Geneva Convention is largley BS in Afghanisitan. You just don't get captured (This is a grenade. There are many like it. This one is mine. )/ The thing is, in Iraq there are rules. In Afghanistan not so much as none of our enemies even pretend to follow them.
FQ13

And you know this HOW ?

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

And you know this HOW ?

I'm not sure what you're asking. The Geneva Convention applies to uniformed armed forces members of a signatory state and is binding on another signatory nation. Mercs, spies, and irregulars aren't covered. Neither are those operating out of uniform or "using civilians as a ruse of war". Those, you can shoot. If you want to argue about Afghanistan, I guess I'd offer the following. I love our military and have great faith in it. I'm just not sure what we have that Alexander the Great, The British Empire and the Soviet Union didn't. I am particularly unsure why we should try when even if we win, all we'll get is a bunch of rocks, dirt and muslim fanatics. I'd rather win the turtle wax, Rice-A-Roni and the play at home version of Jeopardy. At least in Iraq we theoretically get oil. Look how well thats paying for itself. Anyway, rephrase your question and I'll answer your objection. I hope I made my basic position plain.
FQ13 Who has less than zero desire to engage in a prolonged occupation of a muslim country (because thats always so much fun).  

[Pathfinder]

Nope, Geneva and Hague Convention apply only to the uniformed military. Contractors (other wise known as mercenaries) have no rights, nor obligations under the Geneva Convention. They are by definition unlawful combatants and can be killed on sight. This is balanced by the fact that our enemy is made up of unlawful combatants who behead folks on video tape and so the Geneva Convention is largley BS in Afghanisitan. You just don't get captured (This is a grenade. There are many like it. This one is mine. )/ The thing is, in Iraq there are rules. In Afghanistan not so much as none of our enemies even pretend to follow them.
FQ13

You left out the other middle men - the contractors who are working for the US gummint as in State Dept security, etc. These are official US representatives, I am guessing they have to obey too. Of course they probably draw from the same equipment sources as the military, so ball is easier to acquire.

Contractors do not equal mercs, they are employees (W-2 or 1099 or corp-to-corp) of the gummint, that's why I distinguished between them. You should too. And notice I omitted names of companies, did not want to set you off on another rant full of storm and fury, signifying nothing.

I have a contact from the afore-not-mentioned company, I will check with him.

BTW, anyone see the Sig GSR 1911 Blackwater commemorative? I want one. And not just because it's a Sig. I already got the cool hat and t-shirt!   


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/13/sig-1911-blackwater-pistol/

[fightingquaker13]

You left out the other middle men - the contractors who are working for the US gummint as in State Dept security, etc. These are official US representatives, I am guessing they have to obey too. Of course they probably draw from the same equipment sources as the military, so ball is easier to acquire.

Contractors do not equal mercs, they are employees (W-2 or 1099 or corp-to-corp) of the gummint, that's why I distinguished between them. You should too. And notice I omitted names of companies, did not want to set you off on another rant full of storm and fury, signifying nothing.

I have a contact from the afore-not-mentioned company, I will check with him.

BTW, anyone see the Sig GSR 1911 Blackwater commemorative? I want one. And not just because it's a Sig. I already got the cool hat and t-shirt!   


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/13/sig-1911-blackwater-pistol/

Path
You raise an interesting question, but its largely moot. Does a contractor enjoy the same rights as a soldier under the Geneva convention? At first blush the answer would be no. However, given that the enemy in Afghanistan will kill both without distinction the legalities don't matter. As the the late Sid Vicious said "Do what you bloody want. Just don't let the bastards take you alive".
FQ13 who is an unapologetic child of the 80s, and when it comes to the laws of war a VERY practical man

[ratcatcher55]

Outside of your lack of standing with the Geneva Convention, your arm selections as a US citizen, are regulated under the ITAR  restrictions. International Treaty on Arms Reduction, you need licenses, export and end user certificates to move ammo and weapons from country to country.  It's takes 6 weeks for us to get a temporary export license for our gear which does not typically include firearms.  You'll also need to get a Form 4457 to bring your own weapon back into the country.

It's much easier to pick up the weapons locally than to bring your own if you don't have the backing of a legal department or an export company.  

[Jackel]

no you are not restricted to anything, but ball is by far the most easily available, during my time with triple canopy we just spooned stuff off the US base in An najaf. to get special ammo you need to put a request in to Com. and then they need to get a air freight and it then takes about 3 weeks to get there, generally isnt worth it.