Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

[tombogan03884]

 I see this as a training failure being blamed on equipment.

[Hazcat]

I see it as poor equipment that has been attempting to be fixed by training for the last 40 years.

[twyacht]

M60 E4?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1zq16pZn5E

1 trigger pull. 8 belts. No stopping..

Maybe it would have helped.

[tombogan03884]

M60 E4?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1zq16pZn5E

1 trigger pull. 8 belts. No stopping..

Maybe it would have helped.

The gun the M 60 replaced was even better, the .30 Browning 1919

.

I see it as poor equipment that has been attempting to be fixed by training for the last 40 years.

While I'm not real impressed with .223/5.56 for Deer sized game, I don't really have any gripes about the AR it's self.

[alfack]

If you can't get it done with an M16/M4 and an M9, I doubt any other rifle/pistol combo you could come up with would make a difference.

This sounds like a rag piece by an admitted M4 detractor. There are too many other variables that are unknown. It could have been a break down of training, poor weapon maintenance, poor defensive perimeter strategy, not enough troops to get the job done in the first place, etc. etc..

Sometimes good guys get killed in combat. Unfortunately, that is the nature a war. You can't go blaming every death on equipment.

[Sponsor]

[MAUSERMAN]

Has anyone taken the time to see how badly worn those M4's were. They shoot the shit out of them in practice and in battle, they have to be checked fo wear like any machine. The argument over M4's being used a machineguns is correct. They are not meant to to be fired in such a manner. I know the AK wont fail if used that way but once they're hot they wont hit shit passed 50yards. I had an old Mak90 and i shot the hell out of it one day at the range and noticed it started to hit everything but the target.

[fightingquaker13]

It sems to me the question is how to fix it. If we can put a man on the moon we should be able to do this. Start with say a seven pound max, three round burst, AK reliabilty, 2.5 MOA at three hundered yards with 7.62x51 or 39 ummph. Shouldn't we be able to do this and for a lot cheaper than the new Buck Rodgers jet?
FQ13

[Big Frank]

Most soldiers should be issued M16s instead of M4s. They don't seem to have this problem. If they had M4A1s with full auto instead of 3-round burst that would make it worse.

[TAB]

I'm just wondering...

every one always talks about aks realiabilty, but has anyone ever actually tested them?  ( you know like the dust test that was done with ARs not long ago,  (failure rates were less then 1 per thousand rounds)  


I mean a true apples to apples test...  

[Badgersmilk]

I see it as poor equipment that has been attempting to be fixed by training for the last 40 years.

+8,7440,000!
(Total number of US troops in Vietnam)

THE MCNAMARA CURSE!  It's easy to blame the troops when they can't defend themselves as a whole, it only takes one rep. from the weapon manufacture to point the finger and suddenly it's all the troops fault.  I have yet to see an AK that wouldn't fire until you lit the hand guard on fire!  And then it'd keep firing!  See Youtube for all the video's you care to ever watch of it.  What about the M14?  I've never heard a troop with a single complaint other than "it's heavy"...  OK  , we can fix that!  Even cut back on it being to long if you dont like that.

IF troops are using full auto fire it's because they've learned that 5.56 is NOT a man stopper!  And they need 5 or 6 rounds in a guy to stop his assult on them.  Put yourself in close quarters (inner city) combat against (4) AK toteing rag heads, with a gun that you've seen wont put down a guy unless he's got several rounds in him.  Are you using full auto?  Duh.

I hate to do it, but will agree the M4 is part of the problem.  The 5.56 was sold to the military based on the fact that the bullets would "tumble" and do equal damage or more than bigger "stable" calibers.  Problem is all the "bullet tumbleing" crap I've ever seen in the military was based on ballistics from a 20" barrel, at very specific ranges.  The bullet has to be going just the right speed for their stupid little hypothetical situation to work!  "Golly Mr. Rag Head could you please back off about 150 feet more so I have a fair chance?"  

Don't blame the troops.  As "free" citizens the troops are OUR customers!!!  The customer is ALWAYS RIGHT!  A dead customer is not a good customer.  If they said they needed Red Rider BB guns to do the job right.  WHAT ARGUEMENT DO YOU HAVE?!?!?!!!!!!  YOUR NOT THERE!  YOUR LIFE ISN'T ON THE LINE!!!

Having fired several MILITARY AR's (we're not talking about your $2,000 specially tuned Rock River here!), I have YET to fire one that didnt jam on me!  Blame me , I did everything I was trained, just like the rest of your customers, I was just lucky enough to not die as a result of this POS of a weapon!