Author Topic: Yuppie 9-1-1  (Read 3880 times)

tombogan03884

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 07:41:12 PM »
 Seems to me that the whole point of going to a "wilderness area" is that you "are on your own" and the challenge of that is if you screw up you die.

If I were the dispatcher some of those calls would be answered with, "sucks to be you".  ;D

tombogan03884

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2009, 11:58:03 AM »
Just saw this in today's free Paper

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/LaconiaPDF/2009/10/30L.pdf

Hikers must be prepared – or pay for rescue

CONCORD (AP) — Stranded with
a sprained ankle on a snow-covered
mountain, Eagle Scout Scott Mason
put his survival skills to work by
sleeping in the crevice of a boulder
and jump-starting evergreen fires
with hand sanitizer gel.
He put plastic bags inside his boots
to keep his feet dry as he sloshed
through mountain runoff hidden
beneath waist-deep snow. After three
cold days last April, rescue crews spotted
him hiking toward the summit of
Mount Washington, the Northeast’s
highest mountain.
New Hampshire officials praised his
resourcefulness. So grateful was he
for his rescuers that Mason, 17, sent
$1,000 to the state.
Sometime later, New Hampshire
sent him a bill: $25,734.65 for the cost
of rescuing him.
New Hampshire is one of eight
states with laws allowing billing for
rescue costs, but only New Hampshire
has made frequent attempts to do
so — even strengthening its law last
year to allow the suspension of hiking,
fishing and driver’s licenses of those
who don’t pay, according to an Associated
Press review.
National search and rescue organizations
insist just the possibility of
being billed is dangerous policy. Hikers
may delay calling for help while they
think about the cost, and that could
put them — and the mostly volunteer
corps of rescuers — at greater risk.
Other states with laws allowing
them to recoup costs rarely, if ever,
enforce them, largely for that reason,
the AP found.
“If it had happened in Colorado, he
would have been applauded for being
able to survive for three days,” said
Paul “Woody” Woodward, president of
Colorado’s Alpine Rescue Team. “New
Hampshire is way out on their own on
this one.”
New Hampshire officials counter
that being properly prepared — not
the size of the scout’s bill — should be
the message about visiting wilderness
areas. And, fish and game officials
say, many of the state’s trailheads are
posted with signs warning hikers they
may be billed for rescue costs if they
aren’t properly prepared.
Mason, now an 18-year-high school senior, from Halifax,
Mass., has hired a lawyer to try to negotiate a settlement.
Officials said he was found to be negligent because
he veered off the marked path, was unprepared for melting
snow that made a shortcut perilous and went up the
mountain with an injured ankle, not down.
The bill included more than $24,000 for a helicopter
and labor provided by state fish and game offi-
cers. Volunteers provided their time at no charge.
Three states besides New Hampshire — Hawaii,
Oregon and Maine — have general laws allowing
agencies to bill for rescues. Only Maine has
attempted to recoup money a handful of times and
the bills were never paid. California, Vermont, Colorado
and Idaho have laws allowing state agencies to
bill in limited circumstances, but the laws are rarely
enforced — and when they are, draw a firestorm of
protest from search and rescue groups.
Two years ago, the fire department in Golden,
Colo., rescued a hiker from Kansas who had sprained
his ankle and later billed him for $5,135. The outcry
from national search and rescue groups influenced
the city to change its policy and settle with the hiker
for 10 percent of the bill.
Only New Hampshire has consistently billed people.
Last year, lawmakers increased the likelihood of being
billed when they lowered the legal standard from reckless
to negligent to make it easier to collect.
Records obtained by The Associated Press from a
Freedom of Information Act request found that New
Hampshire spent $413,543 on 275 rescue missions
over the past two years. The state issued 16 bills for
rescues totaling $41,435 — with Mason’s $25,000
bill the largest. The state spent far more, $59,426, on
a December 2007 search that was not billed. In that
case, the body of the 70-year-old hunter was found
four months later. His family was not billed.
“We’re not going out there with the intent to bill
everyone,” insists Fish and Game Maj. Timothy
Acerno.
Policies vary across the country on penalizing
people who ignore weather warnings, don’t carry
flashlights on long hikes, fail to leave itineraries, ski
out of bounds or are otherwise unprepared or act
irresponsibly.
If Mason had gotten lost in a National Park, his
rescue would have been free, said David Barna, chief
of public affairs for the National Park Service.
New Hampshire officials stress they only bill those
who are negligent.
Acerno said that experienced search and rescue
volunteers and fish and game staff consider what
a reasonable person would have done and measure
the person’s actions against a hiker responsibility
code that calls for knowing the terrain and conditions,
taking proper gear, leaving an itinerary and
turning back if conditions change. The attorney general’s
office makes the final determination.
Hannah Groom, a 21-year-old college student from
Cumberland, Maine, learned the hard way.
While grateful for rescuers’ help, Groom said the
$3,360 bill sent to her and a friend was steep for
one night on New Hampshire’s Baldface Mountain
in May. The two had planned a day hike, but took
a wrong trail. She blames confusing trail markers.
“I do not believe that charging two young adults such
a high fee for a mistake caused by poor trail markers
is warranted,” she wrote The AP in an e-mail.

1911 Junkie

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 01:08:53 PM »
I say give the kid a break. He didn't call for help. If he was still moving up the mountain to make the summit, he couldn't have been that bad off. Somebody just freaked and sent a rescue team. Bill them.

"I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eye and shoot him with my old .45"  Hank Jr.

fightingquaker13

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2009, 01:14:30 PM »
This does seem a bit extreme. What bothers me is the shifting of the standard down from "reckless". If you do something that a reasonable, and well informed, person would consider assine, then bill away. If you just made a mistake, and did your best to overcome it, as this kid did, then I think ten cents on the dollar is fair. $2500, he can pay for. $25,000? Thats two years of college. Too much in my opinion, particularly since he didn't make the call.
FQ13

MikeBjerum

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2009, 02:08:00 PM »
EPIRBs are wonderful devices when truely needed.  But, just for grins think about this possibility.  What if we posted signs at the entrances to wilderness areas that said something like: 
This is a wilderness area. 
By entering this area you agree you are on your own. 
Rescues will not be attempted. 
In this area your EPIRB is useless. 
Lives of first-responders will not be put at risk if you get into trouble. 
If you do get into trouble, you must self-rescue. 
Have a good day.
Smokey Bear

Now I know that this smacks of some sort of right wing attempt at personal responsibility, but I think it just might encourage people to prepare.  It might make them aware that the big brown bear is not some sort of audio-anima-tronic thing from Disney and that personal actions do have consequences.

Nah.  I'm just dreamin'.......

Up here we would say that it was the tree hugging left wingers getting carried away trying to protect the Boundary Waters.  By the way, this is one area where I part from the general right wing crowd in that I prefer to have a quiet place to go and get away from modern convenience and metro noise over the economic gain of opening the area to snowmobiles and jet skis.  But basically, in our neck of the woods the lefties would let you die rather than save you ... the righties would make a profit off you, and fq would open debate on what is best  ;)
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #15 on: Today at 04:50:01 PM »

tombogan03884

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Re: Yuppie 9-1-1
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2009, 02:20:00 PM »
This does seem a bit extreme. What bothers me is the shifting of the standard down from "reckless". If you do something that a reasonable, and well informed, person would consider assine, then bill away. If you just made a mistake, and did your best to overcome it, as this kid did, then I think ten cents on the dollar is fair. $2500, he can pay for. $25,000? Thats two years of college. Too much in my opinion, particularly since he didn't make the call.
FQ13

The rescue was initiated because his return was 12 hours overdue, I do not know for sure why he continued UP the mountain, but I presume that he considered the Weather station on the summit the closest place to get help.
Also, contrary to the impression given in the article Mt Washington IS in fact located with in the White Mountain National Forest.
As to the standard, my understanding is that the basis of the LOWER standard is what "a reasonable, and well informed, person " would consider reasonable.

 

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