What do the modern shooting sports lack?

[tombogan03884]

Any time spent concentrating on, site acquire, presss is not wasted, whether it is with a loaded weapon at a high end training center, a loaded weapon at a match of some sort, or an unloaded weapon in your cellar. The US Marine Corps trains the worlds best marksmen, and a large portion of the first week of rifle training consists of "Snapping in" gathered around a barrel painted with the various targets, you practice getting into the various shooting positions, sighting, and SQUEEEZing the trigger. The following week when you actually shoot your muscles are stretched out enough for the positions, you know how your site picture should look and you know when your trigger will break. The firing week is used to put it all together to put the bullet on the target.

[luvmy45]

No, that's not what I am implying by my question. Maybe I need to explain how I see training. I see training as encompassing the CFS class (or pick your favorite training program), practice at a range/home with the skills learned at the class, and applying those skills in a controlled simulation like what IDPA provides; it's all one continuum. To me they are not mutually exclusive and ideally they should be complimentary.

Then we are on the same page.  And the answer is then a personal answer and not a shooting sport answer. You have to do what you need to, to train.

That's a good suggestion. Once I have established myself in the club, I will give that a shot. Incidentally, Massad Ayoob shoots at the club I go to and he has setup these scenarios in the past; the Miami FBI shootout is one.

I am jealous!! You are blessed to be able to shoot with Mr. Ayoob. But don't wait!!!! Go up to the MD and tell him, I'm here to help, put me to work! Get there early, stay late to clean up. Tell them you want to do some course design. Most MD and clubs I know are always glad to hear that.

The reason I started this thread is I heard Rob state on one of his podcasts he encounters those who shoot at IDPA matches think they are adequately prepared to handle a life threatening situation when, in fact, they are not.

That is true, but it is NOT IDPA teaching that. That is their personal opinion of their skill set. It happens in USPSA as well. They are not the norm, nor are they the driving force behind IDPA. They are just a participant in the sport, they don't run it. I have not met a MD or heard of one that espouses that point of view, I'm sure they are out there, but they get weeded out pretty quick.

Brian

[johncasey4]

Brian, your last comment is true; it is each shooters perception of his/ her ability that allow them to continue to do the bad things that they do.  And while the people running the match do not necessarilly condone the mistakes, I doubt they go out of their way to address them either.  Telling someone that what they are doing is likely to get them killed in a real fight isn't a good icebreaker. 

  Guys, I know that this is a "game" as most of us have pointed out, but think about the name and what thoughts it envokes in you.  If something is billed as a "defensive pistol" competition then that is what it should be, even if it is a game.  It isn't defensive, for the most part, and I think that the inconsistencies are some of what Rob takes issue with.

  Someone in a previous post mentioned "blind scenarios," personally I think that this would be the only legitimate way to do things.  Forgoing the suspension of disbelief of walking voluntarily into a gun fight, in a true defensive situation you aren't going to know the sequence of targets, the coreographed steps through the room, when you will have to reload, whether or not you are going to have to perform a malfunction drill etc...  All of those things are what makes IDPA non-defensive.  I get that it isn't training, but it also isn't truly defensive, and while those of us here know that (at least I assume that we do), I suspect that a lot of the participants do think that and haven't had any training on how to use a firearm to defend themselves. 

  Quick question, and chalk this up to lack of experience with these competitions, does everyone have to go from a concealed holster?  I know the idea is to "level" the playing field.  In other words if you can't afford the Jackie Mason putter from Caddy Shack II that lays down the grid then you're out of luck.  But there should be rules that say something to the affect of "If you would not carry this gun to protect yourself in public than you may not use it here." I know tons of people who shoot comps with a 1911 of some sort but carry an itty bitty wheel gun.  Far as I am concerned they need to do the comp with the gun they carry...

[luvmy45]

Brian, your last comment is true; it is each shooters perception of his/ her ability that allow them to continue to do the bad things that they do.  And while the people running the match do not necessarily condone the mistakes, I doubt they go out of their way to address them either.  Telling someone that what they are doing is likely to get them killed in a real fight isn't a good icebreaker. 

What is bad? Why is it bad? Who say's it's a mistake? It's a game, I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?

Not picking on "you", but do you see the issue? It's a game, not a training seminar. The SO/RO's are not tactic coaches, the MD is not the guru for defensive shooting scenario's. In fact, they may have never been to a defensive class, but they love to shoot and are in the sport. The people that run your everyday IDPA clubs and matches are not police, swat team members, they are not the Massad Ayoobs of the industry, they are everyday guys, like you and me.

It is what it is...

Guys, I know that this is a "game" as most of us have pointed out, but think about the name and what thoughts it envokes in you.  If something is billed as a "defensive pistol" competition then that is what it should be, even if it is a game.

If it's a defensive pistol class, and you know it's coming, is it really defensive? If you go into a shoot house to save your family, even if you have the choice not to shoot. Are you really acting defensively? If the guys in the house are shooting back with air soft, but you know they are going to do it going in, is it really defensive?

I don't think you can truly train, defensively, as you are wanting to defining it. That you can't know about it, that you must be "surprised" when it happens. If you pay for a $5000 defensive pistol class, you are paying to learn to shoot your gun, why and etc... not walk around the campus for a week, and wait to be surprised by the instructor that says "gotcha".

My point here is, it is what it is. It will never truly be defensive, the way you are describing it.

Quick question, and chalk this up to lack of experience with these competitions, does everyone have to go from a concealed holster?  I know the idea is to "level" the playing field.  In other words if you can't afford the Jackie Mason putter from Caddy Shack II that lays down the grid then you're out of luck.  But there should be rules that say something to the affect of "If you would not carry this gun to protect yourself in public than you may not use it here." I know tons of people who shoot comps with a 1911 of some sort but carry an itty bitty wheel gun.  Far as I am concerned they need to do the comp with the gun they carry...

www.idpa.com. You can download the rule book and read it, it's short and easy read.

To summarize, yes they actually do say, in the rule book, If it's not suitable for concealed, everyday carry, you can't use it. Then they define what that is.

Yes, you do have to draw from concealment if the COF calls for it, or from a desk drawer, or a bedstand, or from the gun in the gun lock.

That was actually a great COF that my club did, to illustrate how insane it is to lock your defensive gun with a gun lock. Took people 15 to 45 seconds to unlock the gun, load it and shoot 1 shot! Eye opener.

Anyway, it's a great sport... it beats throwing lead down the range at stationary targets. It gets you around like minded people and you can discuss the various nature of using a IWB vs OWB holster, ankle vs pocket, .45 vs 9mm, etc... we even talk politics!

It's a sport.. IF you are defensive minded, and have had training, it will help you keep your skills up and sharp. If you have never had any training... it won't help you develop tactics, but that's not what it is suppose to do.

Brian

[tombogan03884]

From reading some of the comments here I have come up with the following comments of my own: First,
(Quote from JohnCasey4) Telling someone that what they are doing is likely to get them killed in a real fight isn't a good icebreaker.
(Quote from Luvmy45) I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?
I think you may have mistaken JC4's meaning, I think he was referring more to things that safety and other "sport" requirements mandate, like not shooting with a body part forward of the muzzle, rather than simply doing it quicker. At least that was my understanding.
Secondly, I think the title precludes any other forms of conflict resolution. In the "REAL world you have the options of avoidance, or talking your way out of a situation, but in Defensive PISTOL your options are pretty much limited to shooting or clubbing, and since it's a SHOOTING sport, Well you guys can figure it out. 
Third, This one is just an opinion, knowing the course in advance detracts from the usefulness, but gives practice with engaging targets that are not lined up in square range formation. Blind courses would provide more realistic scenarios as you are suddenly presented with a shooting situation solve it now, don't think, DO. are you engaging ALL the targets, Are there non shoot targets, all these questions must be answered as you are drawing and firing.
As I may have said earlier I DO NOT shoot IDPA (my local range does it Wed. night when I'm working    ) But ANY time spent on "site acquire, trigger press" is useful, the rest is thoughts inspired by your previous posts in this thread.

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[ericire12]

Brilliant as always, Tom. Brilliant as always.

[Michael Bane]

+1 Tom!

You guys know that I came up through competition. I helped found USPSA and my IDPA number is A-00009. I believe that competition can teach you things you will have a hard time learning anywhere else. But competition is not training! Here's what I believe competition excels at teaching:

• Gun-handling skills. I can always tell a competition shooter.
• Safety. Period. Exclamation point!
• Failure drills/jam clearances.
• For lack of a better word, gun-sense...competition shooters tend to be more comfortable with their guns because they handle them more, and it shows.
• A grounding in the basics.
• An understanding of "broken" position shooting.

Competition does not teach strategy, tactics, awareness, avoidance, verbal skills, close-in empty hand/improvised weapon/firearm skills, weapons retention, etc. I was in the first "test class" that laid the groundwork for the USPSA National Range Officer Institute, and my friend Tom Judd and I did the first (I believe) Safety Officer classes for IDPA, but I remain uncomfortable relying on ROs/SOs for anything but match-related information. I have been lucky enough to be a shooter on stages run by some of the legends of the sport — Walt Rauch, Jim Cirillo, Ken Hackathorn, Bill Wilson, Bill Rogers, among others. I have also been a shooter on stages with ROs/SOs who barely understood how to get through the stage, much less provide any Real World tactical information.

Choose your instructors carefully!

Michael B

[Rob Pincus]

Okay, I've watched this thread for a few days to let people express some opinions and thoughts before jumping in... I wasn't ignoring it by any stretch!

I think there is a lot of good stuff here, but I want to answer the original question.

The problem with competition is that it tries to put an OBJECTIVE set of rules/measurements over a very subjective situation. Any time that you do that, you are going to get people who want to "play the rules" instead of "playing the game." The interest in winning steers some people towards trying to work every rule to their advantage, regardless of what they would "really" do. This ruins competition's value as a "simulation" or evaluation of real tactical skill.
This is the attitude that is very well demonstrated by this type of statement (taken out of context by the OP):

What is bad? Why is it bad? Who say's it's a mistake? It's a game, I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?

It exemplifies the attitude that score is somehow relevant to the Real World "just because".

As alluded to by another poster, you can certainly ignore the "rules" and take advantage of the opportunity to shoot some cool courses of fire and do things that they may not normally let you do. Unfortunately, most RSO's won't let you shoot a stage blind and you an sometimes violate the "safety rules" by doing things in a way that would be "more right" in the real world (moving when you are not supposed to, engaging targets in the "wrong" order, etc....
 Most clubs don't actually seem to want guys who are there to practice, as opposed to compete. My take is that the range heroes who take home the plaques and tell people they are "defensive" shooters don't want to be made to look bad by the SLOW guy who is obviously being more defensive (and doesn't care about his score) and undermining the false legitimacy of their "defensive shooting title". 

There area a lot of positive opportunities in some competition arenas that shouldn't be ignored:

As Tom mentioned, the need to act when the buzzer goes off can be a positive. Of course, you probably already had a briefing about the stage, say three other people do it and got a tip from your buddy... so it isn't exactly Counter Ambush reaction, but at least there is some time pressure.

As M. Bane mentioned, the weapons handling practice can really be a huge positive. Of course, if you're practicing things that only work reliably under range conditions, you may be getting very good at the wrong things. Looking at your gun while reloading and rushing to "Empty and Show Clear" are probably not how you want to spend your time if you are really trying to develop defensive shooting skills. Swinging your gun at extension across a plate rack IS NOT multiple target training, it is a circus trick.

****

As always, you have to have integrity. I applaud the guys who say "this is just a game and I do it to have fun." There is integrity in that type of statement. I applaud the guys who say "it is the only time that my local range allows my to draw from my holster and shoot, so I show up." That makes sense to me.

-RJP

[luvmy45]

Rob,

With due respect, I believe that my quote is being taken out of context, unfortunately the nature of the beast in this way of communicating. My full comment with the comment you quoted:

What is bad? Why is it bad? Who say's it's a mistake? It's a game, I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?

Not picking on "you", but do you see the issue? It's a game, not a training seminar. The SO/RO's are not tactic coaches, the MD is not the guru for defensive shooting scenario's. In fact, they may have never been to a defensive class, but they love to shoot and are in the sport. The people that run your everyday IDPA clubs and matches are not police, swat team members, they are not the Massad Ayoobs of the industry, they are everyday guys, like you and me.

It is what it is...

I think you and I are on the same page. This was not meant to defend the shooting sports but to illustrate the point that, the shooting sports are NOT defensive training grounds, they do not have qualified defensive instructors as the SO/RO and really have not place in telling someone what they should or should not be doing. Because this is a game.

I think the original questions, "What do modern shooting sports lack?" is a worded bad, because it infers that there is a problem with the shooting sports. That they are missing the boat, that they could be more than what they are?

I think the modern shooting sports lack nothing, but more members. :-) They are NOT training grounds for defensive shooting, they are not tactical courses on how to handle situations that arise. They ARE a lot of fun. They do teach you, as M. Bane has said, gun handling skills, awareness of the gun, etc...

My issue with a question like this, is that the sport is being made out like it is suppose to be something that it is not. IDPA, and I love the sport, USPSA, and I enjoy that sport, are just that games and sports, and time to talk with like minded individuals, spur competition, and maybe go home with a new gun if you place well or get lucky in the drawing.

It is what it is, why do people want to try and make it something that it's not?

Regards,

Brian

[Rob Pincus]

Brian, you are correct... I did take your  statement out of YOUR context. I edited my post to reflect that.

That is reason that I didn't put your name there... I didn't mean to leave the impression that I thought that you were one of those who were misrepresenting the GAME as "training". As you noted, several RSOs do think of themselves as instructors and misunderstand the rules of their preferred sport as rules of defensive shooting/tactics.

So, in that regard, maybe the original comment on my podcast was also a bit out of context. I don't think the shooting sports are missing anything as GAMES.... they are too often mis-represented as other-than-that, however, which is what I often address is class lectures.

-RJP