What do the modern shooting sports lack?

[luvmy45]

[shooting sports] ...are too often mis-represented as other-than-that, however, which is what I often address it in class lectures.

I completely agree with you.

And thank you for clarifying your intentions with previous post. In the context that you were using it, you are completely correct. It does express the attitude of some.

Thanks,

Brian

[fullautovalmet76]

Rob,
Thanks for answering the original question, which helps me understand your point of view.

For the others: the crux of the question comes from Rob's podcast on 2/4/2008, and is titled "Balance of Speed and Precision". Rob references competitive shooters in IDPA at about the seven minute mark.

All,
As someone who has actually used (fired) their handgun in self defense in a life threatening situation, I am taking my approach to self defense with a firearm much more seriously than I did before it happened. I posted my story (http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3481.0) on the forum several months ago to give others an idea of what it might be like to be in a situation like that and I wanted to learn from others who had endured a similar situation.

After that experience I looked at various options. I took a NRA self-defense course and considered going to one of the established schools, but resources were always an issue; when is it not, right? Friends told me about IDPA and encouraged me to check them out. I was relieved to find on their website they state as one of their goals to, "Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate a potentially life-threatening encounter or that tests skills that would be required to survive a life-threatening encounter." I guess I should not have believed what I read..... 

From the beginning, my expectations of IDPA were that they were building on the training I received and I would be practicing techniques that would help me in a crisis situation. Based upon the weight of the posts in this thread, I am very mistaken. From my point of view now, IDPA really should change their name to something that does not have the word "defensive" in it; it just isn't so. Maybe those who established it had one set of ideals but it appears there is a disconnect from what they aspired to achieve and what actually happens. I have to say JohnCasey was right about them in his earlier posts.

JohnCasey,
You mentioned that you don't have much experience with IDPA matches. A suggestion (FWIW): Maybe do some field research and shoot a few matches in your area to get an idea of what they are like. Knowing your background, you will have to reserve judgment until you have tried a few matches. This way you will know first-hand what they can and can not do. In fact, I will be eager to hear what you think how they measure in terms of what you know and what they state are their goals in these competitions.

Tom, Michael, Rob, and M25 gave good feedback that I will carry forward. I will continue to shoot IDPA, but I will not take it seriously anymore. As Rob said in the above referenced podcast, "the correlation between the belief in your ability and your actual ability, is raised through frequent and realistic practice." I thought IDPA gives that opportunity, but I guess I will use it as part of my practice of the fundamentals and look for another venue to get the "realistic" part down.

[NyzPnoy]

I've competed in IDPA, steel challenge and "tactical" rifle competitions at my local gun club.  A lot of members know that I am in the military and I am often asked the difference between the competitions I've mentioned and the "real deal."  My first answer is always the same, my targets in these competitions do not shot back.  I am not suggesting that they should start having targets shooting back, that's foolish.  If that ever happens it wouldn't be a game and it won't be fun, anymore.  Sure there is a little bit of pressure trying to outscore everyone else, but it's not the same when you are fighting for your life and when your target is just few feet away with a gun or a rifle pointing at you.
 
Targets, electronic buzzers or the general environment in competitive sports do not generate the same stimulus like a real violent encounter.  So, the correlation between your initial reaction in competitive sports and real world violent encounter will never be on the same level of intensity.  In competitive sports your targets are pre-positioned and you can envision how you are going to engage your targets and decide which cardboard or plate to hit first.  You can also dictate how fast you'll get through a scenario in competitive sports.  In real world engagement the threat that's presented to you will decide whether or not you shoot or don't shoot or how fast you can eleminate the threat.  Your RECOGNITION OR AWARENESS will be different in competitive sport and real world. 
 
Another issue that is "lacking" in competitive shooting is consideration of othes or bystanders.  Sure there are "no shoot" targets,  but it's not a big deal if you grace or hit it with your bullets.  In real world engagement you may have to decide whether you can engage your target without your rounds hitting innocent people.  Do you have the mindset to actually shoot someone and potentially kill another human being?  A lot of people will say, "Hell yeah!  I'll kill that mother$%^&er if he is trying to kill me."  I've seen some people freeze in the middle of a violent engagement.  It's not because they are cowards (this is another topic) some of us are not capable of taking another life even when their life is in danger.  We are all different.   

If you survive an actual engagement you will realized or at least look back whether your training (competitions)really prepared you for the real world.  I guess the question is not "What is lacking in modern shooting sports?" rather "What is the difference between modern shooting sports and real world engagements?"  As far as I'm concern, the sports are not lacking anything for what it is, a sport. 


Joel

[Rob10ring]

I'm pretty new to competition and the only value that I feel that it offers me, over just going to the range, is that I have to shoot and operate my pistol under a higher level of stress. Are there more things that I could learn to make me better prepared?

[luvmy45]

From the beginning, my expectations of IDPA were that they were building on the training I received and I would be practicing techniques that would help me in a crisis situation. Based upon the weight of the posts in this thread, I am very mistaken. From my point of view now, IDPA really should change their name to something that does not have the word "defensive" in it; it just isn't so. Maybe those who established it had one set of ideals but it appears there is a disconnect from what they aspired to achieve and what actually happens. I have to say JohnCasey was right about them in his earlier posts.

This is unfortunate that your experience has led you to this conclusion, but, and I will fully admit, I am defending IDPA in this response, I think you are being unfair to the IDPA sport

I went to a McDonalds once, it was fast, friendly and the bathrooms were clean and the food was great.

Therefore, all McDonald's are great dining experiences.

I use that to illustrate the point that, unfortunately, the IDPA club... which are locally run, is not adhering to the IDPA intentions and rules that has been set forth. Please, please, please, do not disparage the entire IPDA sport based on your encounter with one IDPA club and how they choose to shoot.

The club that I shoot out is great, most of the time we do use scenario's that would represent a real life encounter, and in fact have setup several real life incidents that have happened. And in fact at our state match we ran a COF that was very close to your actual encounter.

While walking along 2 dogs attack you, the owner of the dogs and his brothers are across the street and see you shoot at their dogs, they begin shooting at you. You can see a video of this here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmHjFcsqFs

We do moving and shooting a lot, using cover. Is it defensive training. NO. Does it test skills that are needed?

If the skills such as what MB has stated:
• Gun-handling skills
• Safety.
• Failure drills/jam clearances.
• gun-sense...
• A grounding in the basics.
• An understanding of "broken" position shooting.

Then yes, it does test those skills. If your thinking it tests your decision making skills on WHEN to use a gun, then no, it does not do that.

You have a very unique perspective on what it means to use a gun in a defensive encounter. I would encourage you to use it to your advantage, help your local IDPA club design better COF's that do stress the skills that you think are valuable.

There are IDPA clubs that do adhere to the guidelines and principals of IDPA.

Brian

[Sponsor]

[fullautovalmet76]

This is unfortunate that your experience has led you to this conclusion, but, and I will fully admit, I am defending IDPA in this response, I think you are being unfair to the IDPA sport

This horse has been beat slap to death, and I should probably let this go. But what the hell! Let's beat this dead horse to a bloody pulp!

Brian,
I solicited a comment from Rob. I got several good answers, including you, that helped me to see it from a different perspective.  Rob gave his follow up which nailed my original question perfectly. I evaluated what everyone said and gave more weight to those whose opinions are formed from experience handling weapons for a living in critical situations or those who have been involved in this arena for many years on a professional basis.

I took IDPA at face value when they stated as one of their goals is to, "Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate a potentially life-threatening encounter or that tests skills that would be required to survive a life-threatening encounter." Based upon what Rob and JohnCasey were talking about they don't measure up to that goal, and I now doubt they can due to the way they are setup. You even said the following (emphasis mine):

They are NOT training grounds for defensive shooting, they are not tactical courses on how to handle situations that arise. They ARE a lot of fun. They do teach you, as M. Bane has said, gun handling skills, awareness of the gun, etc...

My issue with a question like this, is that the sport is being made out like it is suppose to be something that it is not. IDPA, and I love the sport, USPSA, and I enjoy that sport, are just that games and sports, and time to talk with like minded individuals, spur competition, and maybe go home with a new gun if you place well or get lucky in the drawing.

As for the following:

It is what it is, why do people want to try and make it something that it's not?

Refer to my quote from IDPA's goals.....Brian, for me this is not some theoretical exercise like it is for you. And please don't tell me that you know where I'm coming from or you understand, because over 90-something percent of the people on this forum and at those matches have no clue what it's like to be in a situation like that; and I hope they never do.

I'm sorry that I stepped on your toes here, but I believe that an organization that is dedicated to helping their members become proficient at handling a firearm in a crisis situation should ensure those goals translate into sound methods and practices that reflect those goals. That's not being unfair to them, that is perfectly reasonable.

Like I said before, I will continue to shoot IDPA. I like the people. I think the COFs are fun and useful. But I will approach it with a different set of goals and attitudes now. The one thing I have learned to do over the years is to synthesize very dissimilar experiences into something completely cogent and coherent that teaches me something. I will do no less with IDPA.

[luvmy45]

 

We shall have to agree to disagree, and part ways knowing we are friends in the battle for our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Regards,

Brian

[m25operator]

Talk to your home range, match director or range master, and explain what you want, it is a fine line between, FUN, REALISM, AND SKILL SET. I mostly went for skill set, each problem stressed a specific skill, weak hand , strong hand, fast and furious, or extended range, reloading etc.. But it is practice not training, and just like perfect practice makes perfect training, imperfect scenarios make imperfect training, If you want to make a difference, volunteer to be a range officer, and make it to range master, where you get to set the stages, but be warned, people like high round count, not realism. 20/80 I would say, but don't let that influence you. Do it your way for as long as they let you.

[philw]

for me 

the lack of choice   
in relations to firearms to use

the restrictions we have  here

the BS we need to go through to go shooting


I would also like to see more Positives in the media about our sport  not just when the Olympics are on and Michael Diamond is winning in shotgun  as there are so many more things to sporting shooting that just  Olympic style shooting

more junior opportunity's ( that is starting more here in Aust.)  really should be getting more and more in to it.


and the big one   for us all to keep on the one message 

ie   Sporting Clay shooters  to stick up for Long Range Shooters ( 50BMGers  )  or people that use Semi Auto's ( I WANT an AR15 )  for competitions  and not use the line we don't need those rifles  caus I don't use them.   That is the big one for me,   whether you like it or not you should be supportive of every shooter's style and stop the elitist crap

not having a go @ Sporting Clay shooters just using them as an example,  I shoot a little clays my self every now and then

[Rob Pincus]

Keep in mind that some of this is semantics. 

When IDPA claims to "simulate real life events" and then proceeds to tell everyone what is going to happen and, to a large extent, tell them exactly how to solve the problem, the FAIL to do what they claim..... that part is easy.

The next part, in terms of "preparing" people to defend themselves, may be MUCH MORE ACCURATE. IDPA has value, but the participants need to be honest to what those values are and recognize the GAME's limitations.

-RJP