The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: wtr100 on July 23, 2012, 09:09:08 AM
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- said in a high and mighty voice. I'm surrounded at work with liberal women.
sayz me - shoot him in the face or maybe the thighs/crotch - some problems are easily solved
course in IL I'm stuck with a 44 oz Mt Dew, 55 gal trash can of pop corn with simulated butter and harsh language
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wtr100,
It will not happen over night, but you can educate even blond Chicagans.
Yes, the reports are that he was wearing a kevlar helmet, "bullet proof" vest, ballistic leggings, and a crotch protector. However, even my .380 acp or .38 Special +P would get his attention and distract him. My .45 acp will change his course and even knock him off his feet.
None of us can guarantee that we will or be able to act in the way we hope in a situation like that, but we must still be prepared and ready. Interviews of people from the front two rows talk of how he entered, threw something, maybe a smoke bomb, in the air, and he began firing into the ceiling. He then walked up the aisle "sparing the front three rows." With my training, practice, and tools, what could I have done if I were in the front row or two?
This situation is a prime example of how disarming law abiding citizens aided and raised the death count.
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The company he ordered the vest from said it was a "Tactical" vest, NOT a bulletproof one
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My .45 acp will change his course and even knock him off his feet.
Does it knock you down when you shoot it?
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Does it knock you down when you shoot it?
No it doesn't, but then I don't let it hit me in the crotch either.
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Why yes it does, but then again I am only 5'3" and weigh almost 105# dripping wet. Your results may be different ;)
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No it doesn't, but then I don't let it hit me in the crotch either.
I bet a .45 to the crotch would hurt from either direction ...
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We can argue all day about the psychological versus the physiological effects of bullets, but my thinking is that this guy was NOT a soldier or a cop or a guy who trained and gave any thought to being hit himself. Also, nobody has said conclusively whether this was honest-to-goodness body armor or wannabe tac stuff. In any case, one strategy to think about — if, and only if, you are quick enough to react (e.g., guy comes on stage fires round into ceiling...there is a VERY short window there!) — POUR rounds into him! Even if he's armored, he's not going to be shooting while rounds are hitting his vest. Depending on the distance and your skill level, see if you can cut his legs out from under him. If he goes down, continue to POUR rounds into whatever's visible...head and groin for the stop, but if shoulders and arms or legs and hips are all you have, go for that. If you distance and skill levels give you a headshot, take that multiple times.
Will this work? I have no idea, but I think it may be better than waiting around for a bullet in the head.
Secondly, lights and lasers!
Michael B
PS: We will be modeling this for THE BEST DEFENSE, and we'll be doing a lot of thinking and planning beforehand.
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Thanks Michael!
I look forward to seeing trained points of view applied to real world situations. However, I am sure it is difficult for you to determine the PC and sensitive side of how and when to do so.
Thanks again for all you do for us!
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Secondly, lights and lasers!
PS: We will be modeling this for THE BEST DEFENSE, and we'll be doing a lot of thinking and planning beforehand.
Don't forget the smoke.
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Good heavens Michael! Like the good citizen I am, I would follow their dictates and be a Sheeple/unarmed. I would not be able to shoot him...Yea right! I have given up drinking when out to dinner just so I can carry legally!! If there is a no gun sign I either go someplace else or...
Richard
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We can argue all day about the psychological versus the physiological effects of bullets, but my thinking is that this guy was NOT a soldier or a cop or a guy who trained and gave any thought to being hit himself. Also, nobody has said conclusively whether this was honest-to-goodness body armor or wannabe tac stuff. In any case, one strategy to think about — if, and only if, you are quick enough to react (e.g., guy comes on stage fires round into ceiling...there is a VERY short window there!) — POUR rounds into him! Even if he's armored, he's not going to be shooting while rounds are hitting his vest. Depending on the distance and your skill level, see if you can cut his legs out from under him. If he goes down, continue to POUR rounds into whatever's visible...head and groin for the stop, but if shoulders and arms or legs and hips are all you have, go for that. If you distance and skill levels give you a headshot, take that multiple times.
Will this work? I have no idea, but I think it may be better than waiting around for a bullet in the head.
Secondly, lights and lasers!
Michael B
PS: We will be modeling this for THE BEST DEFENSE, and we'll be doing a lot of thinking and planning beforehand.
Some thoughts about MB's "hammer the snot out of him" approach.
It does not matter how heavily armored his "A zone" (head and torso).
Just like any other SD event, the goal is not necessarily to kill the mutt, but to make him cease offensive action.
Hit him in the crotch (pelvis) and legs, he's going down, hit him in the arms, and hands he can not manipulate a weapon.
They may not be "life threatening" injuries, but in Armored warfare it's called a "mobility kill", he isn't destroyed, but he is rendered harmless.
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....the reports are that he was wearing a kevlar helmet, ...
I've discussed the kevalr helmet scenario with a co worker.. my very unqualified and inexperience $.02 is that any rounds, including rounds from my little EDC LCP loaded with a mixture of Critical Defense and Hydroshock's, would at the very least "ring the bell "of anyone with a kevelar helmet allowing you to close in on them and shoot any unprotected areas.?.? Guess the only way to tell would be if there are any LEO or Military people out there with personal experience in that matter :)
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To answer your comment M58, I have the remains of a Level 3A vest I "retired" a few years ago as a reminder that no matter what level "bullet resistant" does NOT equal "bullet proof."
The vest was hung at 15 yrds with the trauma plate facing out and shot with an M9 with standard military ball. We took it down to inspect it after a magazine (15 rds). Some of the bullets were found in the bottom of the front carrier, but there were just as many found in the BACK carrier. Recovered 10 of the 15, so the rest more than likely past completely through the vest. Yes, it was a controlled experiment but I think after the first few rounds he'd know it was over.
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Think about the force, a 9MM's muzzle energy is about equivalent to a professional fast ball.
I think I'd rather have the bullets going through me, it can't hurt any more, and probably hurts less.
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I've discussed the kevalr helmet scenario with a co worker.. my very unqualified and inexperience $.02 is that any rounds, including rounds from my little EDC LCP loaded with a mixture of Critical Defense and Hydroshock's, would at the very least "ring the bell "of anyone with a kevelar helmet allowing you to close in on them and shoot any unprotected areas.?.? Guess the only way to tell would be if there are any LEO or Military people out there with personal experience in that matter :)
And as his head is going back from the kinetic energy, you go for the throat shot.
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Lest we get too focused on this specific scenario, and it is good we do understand what happened and how best to react, we do need to remember the old Zen adage:
Train for nothing so you are prepared for anything.
This does not mean don't train, it means train properly so you can react to the specific situation with which you are faced. If you train for a specific attack, and someone attacks you differently, you are not as prepared to respond - you will respond the way you were trained, not the way you need to react to this specific threat.
Everywhere I go, I evaluate entrances and exits, including emergency only ones, plus who I am with, and what I will do If . . . .
- BG comes around the corner up ahead
- BG from the kitchen
- BG from the front entrance
- Fight breaks out at the next table
- <fill in the blank>
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For as much of a game as IDPA and IPSC are, there is something to be said for having to disect a problem and shooting through it with a little artificial pressure (the clock) without having returning fire. No two stages are the same or have to be handled the same way by everybody so you can watch and learn what worked and what didn't.
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Lest we get too focused on this specific scenario, and it is good we do understand what happened and how best to react, we do need to remember the old Zen adage:
Train for nothing so you are prepared for anything.
This does not mean don't train, it means train properly so you can react to the specific situation with which you are faced. If you train for a specific attack, and someone attacks you differently, you are not as prepared to respond - you will respond the way you were trained, not the way you need to react to this specific threat.
Everywhere I go, I evaluate entrances and exits, including emergency only ones, plus who I am with, and what I will do If . . . .
- BG comes around the corner up ahead
- BG from the kitchen
- BG from the front entrance
- Fight breaks out at the next table
- <fill in the blank>
Good point.
Look at Kata, it is not focused on a particular threat, or attack response mentality it is focused on the particular moves possible with the particular weapon.
A carpenter doesn't learn how to plane an edge, and then how to plane a flat surface, he learns how to use his plane, then it doesn't matter what surface he is working on.
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how much Dr Pepper and popcorn do I have to throw to get a mobility kill? :P
stupid state of IL
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We can argue all day about the psychological versus the physiological effects of bullets, but my thinking is that this guy was NOT a soldier or a cop or a guy who trained and gave any thought to being hit himself. Also, nobody has said conclusively whether this was honest-to-goodness body armor or wannabe tac stuff. In any case, one strategy to think about — if, and only if, you are quick enough to react (e.g., guy comes on stage fires round into ceiling...there is a VERY short window there!) — POUR rounds into him! Even if he's armored, he's not going to be shooting while rounds are hitting his vest. Depending on the distance and your skill level, see if you can cut his legs out from under him. If he goes down, continue to POUR rounds into whatever's visible...head and groin for the stop, but if shoulders and arms or legs and hips are all you have, go for that. If you distance and skill levels give you a headshot, take that multiple times.
Will this work? I have no idea, but I think it may be better than waiting around for a bullet in the head.
Secondly, lights and lasers!
Michael B
PS: We will be modeling this for THE BEST DEFENSE, and we'll be doing a lot of thinking and planning beforehand.
and woo hoo MB replied to one of my threads!.
I don't care what the rest of ya'll say he's alright ...
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It now appears the "body armor" was a wannabe tactical vest...last I checked, bullets go through that fabric just fine. In a case like that, I would rather learn the aggressor had on body armor by me hitting him repeatedly in the center of mass than by trying for a head shot, missing, and later learn he was wearing paintball stuff. Occam's Razor in force here!
Second, I've said for ages (and will no doubt say again) that the greatest benefit of practical shooting is learning how to "game" a stange in a matter of seconds. THAT is a stone cold survival skill! Matches also teach you to roll on to Plan "B" when "A" goes all soft and gooey, then onto "C" when "B" goes south. Any plan is better than standing there waiting for the two headlights to impact.
Suggest you all read Gabe Suarez' blogpost today on The Fog of War — A Lack of Certainty:
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/07/the-fog-of-war-.html
Certainty is not a luxury we're likely to get in this kind of chaotic hell.
Am also a huge proponent of mastering the basics! Over and over again. Kata is a perfect example. I spent about a decade studying kata, even though I'd read Bruce Lee's classic observation that kata is indeed worthless, but that lesson is available only after you'd learned kata. The universe can ALWAYS throw more at you than you've specifically prepared for. But if you've got a lot of tools to draw from, and you've trained yourself to plan/replan quickly (and I strongly suggest Malcolm Gladwell's BLINK as standard reading matter), you have a chance of getting home.
Not a certainty, but at least a chance!
Michael B
PS: I answer everybody, eventually...
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Yes, the company that sold him the vest verified it was just a tacti-billy vest with no armor.
Sadly, it's a bit too late to help those folks but maybe next time! Sitting here watching the local news and all the rhetoric about assault weapons, huge supplies of ammunition, yada, yada, yada! Will it never end?
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how much Dr Pepper and popcorn do I have to throw to get a mobility kill? :P
stupid state of IL
Only 10 ounces if you get cans.
Yes, the company that sold him the vest verified it was just a tacti-billy vest with no armor.
Sadly, it's a bit too late to help those folks but maybe next time! Sitting here watching the local news and all the rhetoric about assault weapons, huge supplies of ammunition, yada, yada, yada! Will it never end?
4 guns, and 6,000 rounds.
There's some on here that would be worrying about next month if they only had 6 K rounds on hand.
And NO Tim, it will never stop until we drive the Marxist Quislings out of education, politics, and the media.
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Only 10 ounces if you get cans.
4 guns, and 6,000 rounds.
There's some on here that would be worrying about next month if they only had 6 K rounds on hand.
And NO Tim, it will never stop until we drive the Marxist Quislings out of education, politics, and the media.
They stopped a guy in Maine today that had several AR rifles, several handguns, an AK, a moderate amount of ammo driving 120 down the turnpike.
My first thought was he was late for a match at his local club.......again, the rhetoric on how he was able to amass such an "arsenal" of dangerous firearms?
He was arrested, haven't heard any more details.
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Only 10 ounces if you get cans.
4 guns, and 6,000 rounds.
There's some on here that would be worrying about next month if they only had 6 K rounds on hand.
And NO Tim, it will never stop until we drive the Marxist Quislings out of education, politics, and the media.
Had that conversation with someone this morning.
Co worker said that anybody buying a lot of ammo should be questioned. I informed him that it wouldn't matter since if any state required a form for anybody buying over say 1K ammo, the guys that do crap like this will buy it 1 box at a time from multiple locations instead of all at once at that point. The responsible citizen that might have been able to STOP said whack-job would be less prepared to do so because they might have less ammo available to practice. He understood and agreed, then again I work with a fair number of independant thinkers that don't mind shooting.
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They stopped a guy in Maine today that had several AR rifles, several handguns, an AK, a moderate amount of ammo driving 120 down the turnpike.
My first thought was he was late for a match at his local club.......again, the rhetoric on how he was able to amass such an "arsenal" of dangerous firearms?
He was arrested, haven't heard any more details.
\
They CLAIM he admitted to being on his way to kill a former boss in Derry NH. They also make big deal about him admitting he went to a movie the other night with a loaded pistol. Only thing they can actually charge him with is speeding if he has a CCW and none of the rifles were loaded.
They also CLAIMED, he had "an automatic machine gun" which I doubt like hell.
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Only 10 ounces if you get cans.
4 guns, and 6,000 rounds.
There's some on here that would be worrying about next month if they only had 6 K rounds on hand.
And NO Tim, it will never stop until we drive the Marxist Quislings out of education, politics, the media and THIS COUNTRY!!!.
FIFY
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Only 10 ounces if you get cans.
4 guns, and 6,000 rounds.
There's some on here that would be worrying about next month if they only had 6 K rounds on hand.
And NO Tim, it will never stop until we drive the Marxist Quislings out of education, politics, and the media.
maybe we need to do a Downrange Busters (knock off of mythbusters)- testing what kind of cans work best for a mobility kill
Dr Pepper
Coke
Pepsi
Rootbeer
those football size ice tea cans - mass - think .45 ACP
maybe those little energy drink cans - high capacity - think 9mm
frozen cans
who are we throwing cans at anyways ... ;D
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maybe we need to do a Downrange Busters (knock off of mythbusters)- testing what kind of cans work best for a mobility kill
Dr Pepper
Coke
Pepsi
Rootbeer
those football size ice tea cans - mass - think .45 ACP
maybe those little energy drink cans - high capacity - think 9mm
frozen cans
who are we throwing cans at anyways ... ;D
Once we start off on the idea, does it really matter any more ? ;D
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Once we start off on the idea, does it really matter any more ? ;D
ok tombogan = target - who's got a good pitching arm
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ok tombogan = target - who's got a good pitching arm
Throw more Brandy !
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maybe we need to do a Downrange Busters (knock off of mythbusters)- testing what kind of cans work best for a mobility kill
Dr Pepper
Coke
Pepsi
Rootbeer
those football size ice tea cans - mass - think .45 ACP
maybe those little energy drink cans - high capacity - think 9mm
frozen cans
who are we throwing cans at anyways ... ;D
Wow!!!
Look how far ahead of us the Mayor of New York City is with his proposed ban on "large caliber" sodas.
We are so screwed when the Brady Campaign and their ilk can out guess us by months.
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The first thing I thought of when I heard about the shooting was this
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/sksmedic/0d5ce8c5.jpg)
I then began to wonder how I would have dealt with this situation. I have run it through my head several times and the answer is I don't know. What I do know is that everything discussed here and on the various MB productions would help give me a fighting chance. I know this to be true because it has already helped me.
I am not sure how many of you have been in a firearm self defense situation that listen to the MB podcast. I am a regular listener and when I was in my particular life and death situation, I swear I heard MB saying " GO TO THE GUN! " in my head. I went to the gun and it saved my life.
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maybe we need to do a Downrange Busters (knock off of mythbusters)- testing what kind of cans work best for a mobility kill
Dr Pepper
Coke
Pepsi
Rootbeer
those football size ice tea cans - mass - think .45 ACP
maybe those little energy drink cans - high capacity - think 9mm
frozen cans
who are we throwing cans at anyways ... ;D
;D
I remembered this incident, but had to look it up to make sure:
The Norman Transcript
February 24, 2011
Man fends off robber by throwing soup can
CNHI News Service
The Norman Transcript
METHUEN, Mass. — Reynaldo Cepeda had just cashed his tax refund check at Walmart when a man demanded his money.
After the attacker started punching him last weekend, Cepeda fought back and grabbed the closest thing he could find — a can of Campbell’s Chunky beef stew — to defend himself.
He flung the can at the alleged attacker’s head and James Egal, 28, of Dover, N.H., suffered a gash that required eight stitches to close. The throw was so hard that the can exploded when it struck Egal’s head.
“I don’t remember throwing it at him,” Cepeda said. “I remember hitting him with it.”
Egal, 28, had been standing behind Cepeda in the check cashing line. Egal had whispered something to two men and a woman, according to Cepeda. Moments later Cepeda was attacked.
During the fight, Cepeda said he thought about a friend who had been killed two days earlier. He said he decided he wouldn’t suffer the same fate. Cepeda said he kept saying to himself, “I’m not going to be a victim like my friend was.”
Egal was arrested in the emergency room at a local hospital and charged with unarmed robbery, assault and battery, and assault and battery on a police officer. He was released on $1,000 bond.
http://normantranscript.com/local/x1124267182/Man-fends-off-robber-by-throwing-soup-can/print
I seem to also remember an old lady doing the same thing to an attacker whom had broken in on her in her kitchen a few years ago.
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I guess if you can't go to the gun, go to the can!
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You do not have to be on the throne to get crowned ;D
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I haven't heard an official reporting on the entire list, but with the latest description of what he was wearing added to earlier bits and pieces, the premise of this thread can go away. The guy was wearing nothing more than a bunch of over the counter soft padding (tactical vest, hard hat of some type, knee and elbow pads, etc.).
Open up and let him have it!
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I haven't heard an official reporting on the entire list, but with the latest description of what he was wearing added to earlier bits and pieces, the premise of this thread can go away. The guy was wearing nothing more than a bunch of over the counter soft padding (tactical vest, hard hat of some type, knee and elbow pads, etc.).
Open up and let him have it!
It loses its pertinence in this specific case, but it is still a relevant consideration with home invaders passing themselves off as SWAT teams, and other potential situations where a predator may be wearing armor.
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It loses its pertinence in this specific case, but it is still a relevant consideration with home invaders passing themselves off as SWAT teams, and other potential situations where a predator may be wearing armor.
It is still pertinent in this case. Had someone opened up on him it would have taken one hit to put him down for good. The argument that he was wearing body armor so firearms would have not helped is a non-issue.
In the case of home invaders and fake officials I stand by my stance of don't worry about what they are wearing, and stop the threat!
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In the case of home invaders and fake officials I stand by my stance of don't worry about what they are wearing, and stop the threat!
Seconded....thirded.....and fourthded...
I haven't been to a film in a few years and I don't know if our little local theater where I took my little girl to see the Fellowship of the Ring Trilogy is anti nor do I care. That's where I'll be going in December to watch the Hobbit with her as well.
I was armed then and I'll be armed in December because since I came back from CT in October, I haven't left the house without at least my .38. The exception was Saturday when I went to CT for the night but I'll be rectifying that when I get my non-resident CC license in CT this fall. After that, I'll only need RI and I don't think I'll bother!
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To MB's point... assess, evaluate and if shooting is the action you believe you need to take, then go with "closest/best weapon on closest/best target". In most situations that is likely to be a center mass shot- vest or no vest. I just talked to one of my acquaintances who took two .380 rounds to the chest(vest) while working drug interdiction in Broward Co several years ago. He says that even if he knows his opponent has a vest he is going with training and putting his first shots on center mass. His experience with being shot in the vest told him that even though he had entered a known probable deadly force situation; fully trained and full of adrenaline, the impact "of a couple of puny .380's" was enough to take his head out of the game for a moment" and had he not been blessed with a good cover officer he would not have had time to reorient before the bad guy finished him off. He says if it worked on him he expects it would apply to anyone he might have to shoot.
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Even when wearing kevlar, an incoming round is gonna feel like you've been hit by a fastball thrown by a major league pitcher. In short, it's gonna hurt!! And probably hurt enough to make you rethink your plans for the evening, especially if you find yourself being pelted by several of them in a short span of time. There are even reports of broken ribs caused by the rounds impacting a kevlar vest.
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Just a reminder,.....all these multi-plex cinemas are gun free zones. Stickers with the pistol and line drawn through them. "Most" law-abiding citizens are just that, and will leave it home, or locked in the car.
HOWEVER, even in Colorado, right after this event, gun sales and CCW permit apps. are up over 40%.
So,,......It comes down to what percentage of "lawful" gun owners, defy the "official notice" and decide that their life, and families life, outweigh a potential "illegal" act if they are caught.
A few quotes come to mind for me:
"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it."
William Burroughs
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." --Thomas Jefferson
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
Robert A. Heinlein
"I will not cede more power to the state. I will not willingly cede more power to anyone, not to the state, not to General Motors, not to the CIO. I will hoard my power like a miser, resisting every effort to drain it away from me. I will then use my power, as I see fit. I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth."
William F. Buckley Jr.
*****
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??? We will never know since nobody took a shot.
Just a note from Va. Tech.
Dr. Liviu Librescu Holocaust Survivor
Unarmed he fought the creep at the door.
He died... but,
all but one of his students escaped and survived.
Why did a ten year old boy survive the horrors of a Nazi labor camp?????
I guess we know now.
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This whole deal has me reassessing what I personally want for a pocket weapon. I was hot to trout for a S&W Sheild but a five shot S&W Model 60 in .357 magnum just might be in the very near future for me. Still have a few boxes of Winchester Silver Tips in my stockpile of ammo from when we carried 66's for a duty weapon and Cor-Bon make some really get carry ammo these days. Also my wife could handle it better than a semi auto handgun. Just thinking ahead for a change.