'he's wearing body armor even if you had a gun you can't hurt him'

[ellis4538]

Good heavens Michael!  Like the good citizen I am, I would follow their dictates and be a Sheeple/unarmed.  I would not be able to shoot him...Yea right!  I have given up drinking when out to dinner just so I can carry legally!!  If there is a no gun sign I either go someplace else or...

Richard

[tombogan03884]

We can argue all day about the psychological versus the physiological effects of bullets, but my thinking is that this guy was NOT a soldier or a cop or a guy who trained and gave any thought to being hit himself. Also, nobody has said conclusively whether this was honest-to-goodness body armor or wannabe tac stuff. In any case, one strategy to think about — if, and only if, you are quick enough to react (e.g., guy comes on stage fires round into ceiling...there is a VERY short window there!) — POUR rounds into him! Even if he's armored, he's not going to be shooting while rounds are hitting his vest. Depending on the distance and your skill level, see if you can cut his legs out from under him. If he goes down, continue to POUR rounds into whatever's visible...head and groin for the stop, but if shoulders and arms or legs and hips are all you have, go for that. If you distance and skill levels give you a headshot, take that multiple times.

Will this work? I have no idea, but I think it may be better than waiting around for a bullet in the head.

Secondly, lights and lasers!

Michael B

PS: We will be modeling this for THE BEST DEFENSE, and we'll be doing a lot of thinking and planning beforehand.

Some thoughts about MB's "hammer the snot out of him" approach.
It does not matter how heavily armored his "A zone" (head and torso).
Just like any other SD event, the goal is not necessarily to kill the mutt, but to make him cease offensive action.
Hit him in the crotch (pelvis) and legs, he's going down, hit him in the arms, and hands he can not manipulate a weapon.
They may not be "life threatening" injuries, but in Armored warfare it's called a "mobility kill", he isn't destroyed, but he is rendered harmless.

[cmrothenb]

....the reports are that he was wearing a kevlar helmet, ...

I've discussed the kevalr helmet scenario with a co worker.. my very unqualified and inexperience $.02 is that any rounds, including rounds from my little EDC LCP loaded with a mixture of Critical Defense and Hydroshock's,  would at the very least  "ring the bell "of anyone with a kevelar helmet allowing you to close in on them and shoot any unprotected areas.?.?     Guess the only way to tell would be if there are any LEO or Military people out there with personal experience in that matter    

[jnevis]

To answer your comment M58, I have the remains of a Level 3A vest I "retired" a few years ago as a reminder that no matter what level "bullet resistant" does NOT equal "bullet proof."

The vest was hung at 15 yrds with the trauma plate facing out and shot with an M9 with standard military ball.  We took it down to inspect it after a magazine (15 rds).  Some of the bullets were found in the bottom of the front carrier, but there were just as many found in the BACK carrier.  Recovered 10 of the 15, so the rest more than likely past completely through the vest.  Yes, it was a controlled experiment but I think after the first few rounds he'd know it was over.

[tombogan03884]

Think about the force, a 9MM's muzzle energy is about equivalent to a professional fast ball.
I think I'd rather have the bullets going through me, it can't hurt any more, and probably hurts less.

[Sponsor]

[bluesman001]

I've discussed the kevalr helmet scenario with a co worker.. my very unqualified and inexperience $.02 is that any rounds, including rounds from my little EDC LCP loaded with a mixture of Critical Defense and Hydroshock's,  would at the very least  "ring the bell "of anyone with a kevelar helmet allowing you to close in on them and shoot any unprotected areas.?.?     Guess the only way to tell would be if there are any LEO or Military people out there with personal experience in that matter    

And as his head is going back from the kinetic energy, you go for the throat shot.

[Pathfinder]

Lest we get too focused on this specific scenario, and it is good we do understand what happened and how best to react, we do need to remember the old Zen adage:

               Train for nothing so you are prepared for anything.

This does not mean don't train, it means train properly so you can react to the specific situation with which you are faced. If you train for a specific attack, and someone attacks you differently, you are not as prepared to respond - you will respond the way you were trained, not the way you need to react to this specific threat.

Everywhere I go, I evaluate entrances and exits, including emergency only ones, plus who I am with, and what I will do If . . . .
- BG comes around the corner up ahead
- BG from the kitchen
- BG from the front entrance
- Fight breaks out at the next table
- <fill in the blank>

[jnevis]

For as much of a game as IDPA and IPSC are, there is something to be said for having to disect a problem and shooting through it with a little artificial pressure (the clock) without having returning fire.  No two stages are the same or have to be handled the same way by everybody so you can watch and learn what worked and what didn't.

[tombogan03884]

Lest we get too focused on this specific scenario, and it is good we do understand what happened and how best to react, we do need to remember the old Zen adage:

               Train for nothing so you are prepared for anything.

This does not mean don't train, it means train properly so you can react to the specific situation with which you are faced. If you train for a specific attack, and someone attacks you differently, you are not as prepared to respond - you will respond the way you were trained, not the way you need to react to this specific threat.

Everywhere I go, I evaluate entrances and exits, including emergency only ones, plus who I am with, and what I will do If . . . .
- BG comes around the corner up ahead
- BG from the kitchen
- BG from the front entrance
- Fight breaks out at the next table
- <fill in the blank>

Good point.
Look at Kata, it is not focused on a particular threat, or attack response mentality it is focused on the particular moves possible with the particular weapon.
A carpenter doesn't learn how to plane an edge, and then how to plane a flat surface, he learns how to use his plane, then it doesn't matter what surface he is working on.

[wtr100]

how much Dr Pepper and popcorn do I have to throw to get a mobility kill? 

stupid state of IL