The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: DBC on November 01, 2012, 04:42:57 PM
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So, I've been having a fairly lively discussion with a compadre of mine who is very adamant that the FMJ ball ammo he loads in his Glock 27 is perfectly fine for self-defense. I disagree, and come down on the side of high quality hollow point or ballistic-tip expanding bullets, as do most reputable trainers and subject matter experts.
Anybody else out there advocate in favor of FMJ ammo for daily defensive carry? Discuss...
;D
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I like FMJ in cold weather for penetration through heavy clothing. I generally keep my spare mag loaded with FMJ in my 1911 and my Mil Pro .40. Ball ammo will usually always feed . 8)
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There are only 2 times I would recomend ball out of a pistol... 1 you are in nj. 2 its all you have.
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I agree with TAB. There are a number of rounds that have bullet shapes or polymer plugs in the hp to help feeding and expansion to use ball.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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Hollow points might not expand on occasion, FMJ never will.
Unless your pistol has feeding issues it is just plain foolish to use 19th century ammo in a late 20th century gun.
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If FMJ were the most effective load they would be used by police departments. Instead they use JHP. Hornady has some great ammo if you are concerned about penetration through heavy clothing. They make Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo in addition to TAP. Also, Double Tap is making some pistol ammo with a JHP bullet on top of a solid ball in their Extreme line.
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I believe that Tom Gresham once said that Clint Smith used FMJ in his EDC.
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I believe that Tom Gresham once said that Clint Smith used FMJ in his EDC.
I'd have to hear that from Clint Smith to believe it.
Ball ammunition wasn't "agreed upon" for use in warfare at one of those "conventions" after the wars because it was the most deadly round available.
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There are only 2 times I would recomend ball out of a pistol... 1 you are in nj. 2 its all you have.
Actually, a lot of us are now using the Hornady FTX with the nylon or plastic center plug- expands on contact and it doesn't have that evil hole in the middle that Lautenmummy doesn't like.
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Just load it 50/50 and double tap, if it comes up and let the bad guy decide which one he prefers.
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For the record, I do not advocate FMJ in a defensive handgun for many of the reasons you all have brought up. But as I said, my buddy seems quite convinced that it is the best choice, and I wanted to see what others thought.
My concern is that his primary consideration seems to be cost. He says he wants to train with the same ammo he carries, and of course who can afford to train with premium defensive ammo all the time? For starters, I doubt many police departments (if any) train with their carry ammo. I know my department didn't. I think you shoot some of your carry ammo, so you know how it shoots, and use training ammo the rest of the time.
I personally would not want to be asked in front of a jury why I chose the ammo I used in a shooting, and have to answer, "because it was cheap."
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For the record, I do not advocate FMJ in a defensive handgun for many of the reasons you all have brought up. But as I said, my buddy seems quite convinced that it is the best choice, and I wanted to see what others thought.
My concern is that his primary consideration seems to be cost. He says he wants to train with the same ammo he carries, and of course who can afford to train with premium defensive ammo all the time? For starters, I doubt many police departments (if any) train with their carry ammo. I know my department didn't. I think you shoot some of your carry ammo, so you know how it shoots, and use training ammo the rest of the time.
I personally would not want to be asked in front of a jury why I chose the ammo I used in a shooting, and have to answer, "because it was cheap."
I think you have much better sense than your buddy.
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Fwiw. The 1st mag full of ammo at the range is my sd ammo. It cost me alot more in gas to go to the range then it does in ammo. That mag cost me alot more then my ball reloads. But still very cheap compared to every thing else. If I was worried about it. I would load fmjs to simlar levels as the my sd ammo and shoot that.
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Fwiw. The 1st mag full of ammo at the range is my sd ammo. It cost me alot more in gas to go to the range then it does in ammo. That mag cost me alot more then my ball reloads. But still very cheap compared to every thing else. If I was worried about it. I would load fmjs to simlar levels as the my sd ammo and shoot that.
TAB, I agree with what you posted, since that also rotates your SD ammo giving you relatively fresh ammo in your carry gun.
My question is "do you carry reloads for SD or did you mean that you would adjust your reload practice ammo to match factory SD loads ?
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If you have access to a chronograph and are a reloader, you can have it both ways.
Clock your chosen SD round to get a good average and accuracy test.
Then find a cheap bullet of the same weight and load to that same velocity and accuracy.
I know the ballistics of a ball 230gr .45ACP round and a JHP 230gr .45ACP round will be different, but that difference will be negligible at any reasonable SD range.
The recoil and sight picture will be virtually the same allowing you to practice with the cheap hand loads and still get the same 'feel' as your carry load.
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I run one magazine of my SD loads when I go to the range, then follow up with the cheaper FMJ rounds. As Tom mentioned, that helps rotate the stock of SD rounds, and that one magazine for my 1911 costs me less than $10. Hell, even I can afford that.
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Tom no reloads for sd. I carry either golden sabres in my commmander or gold dots in my delta elites. Bumping up my reloads to those levels would be easy. I just don't see the point in it.
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As long as we are on practice and reloads:
When I practice I will actually use a download. The purpose of this is to reduce the possibility of developing a flinch based off recoil, and it reduces fatigue during training that may stretch out over a longer period of time.
When you actually get under the stress of self defense I will not associate squeezing the trigger with a harsh recoil, and the adrenaline rush will mask the higher felt recoil.
I do this in hunting practice and in USPSA practice. When the timer goes off or the animal is in the crosshairs you feel nothing and you hear very little. All that is there is the confidence that I can perform at the level I need to perform at.
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Tom no reloads for sd. I carry either golden sabres in my commmander or gold dots in my delta elites. Bumping up my reloads to those levels would be easy. I just don't see the point in it.
That's what I thought, reloads for SD, especially in unfriendly Ca could leave you open to accusations from some liberal prosecutor.
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Thats actually the last thing I am worried about. i am worried about a click, not boom. both gold dot and golden sabre have been around for a long time . While they might not be the latest ands greatest, they have a long track record of giving bad guys a very bad day.
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If you are ever in court for a self defense shooting the use of factory ammo can be to your benefit as it applies to coroborating your account of the distance between you and your attacker. Powder burns on the attacker from a factory round can be tested and verified, thus adding to the credibility of your statement. Also try to retain the the factory box of ammo you use or sd carry. Masad Ayoob is an excellent source of sound info for protecting yourself from the aftermath of a shooting, another source is Marty Hayes.
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If you are ever in court for a self defense shooting the use of factory ammo can be to your benefit as it applies to coroborating your account of the distance between you and your attacker. Powder burns on the attacker from a factory round can be tested and verified, thus adding to the credibility of your statement. Also try to retain the the factory box of ammo you use or sd carry. Masad Ayoob is an excellent source of sound info for protecting yourself from the aftermath of a shooting, another source is Marty Hayes.
Agree 100%.
Not to mention that if you find yourself in court you don't want to have to answer some smarmy-ass layer's question, like, "Why did you feel it necessary to carry custom-loaded ammunition? Weren't factory bullets deadly enough for you?" As sure as Obama is a scumbag, you'll hear some form of that question if you carry reloads for SD and wind up using them.
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Keep in mind that there may be a day you need to carry handloads. I have done it! When ammo is of short supply you make the decide if you want a loaded gun or not. I could not get reliable ammunition for my gun. I had plenty of handloaded jhp at factory spec. I'd rather explain to a judge and jury that I used that ammunition because there was no reliable ammunition in the area available at the time, and that I have the reloading specs by ABC company and my records and chrono results to back it up than to have my wife crying on the evening news because for the first time in a decade I was unarmed and that was the day I needed it.
I am not advocating that we totally change and get reckless, but as I say in many other cases - we need to quit letting the other side set the bar. Some day I might have to explain why I felt it necessary to use a .45 when I own a .40, a .38, a .380, and a 9. Why did I feel the need to use a massive .45 when the local police are fine with a .40 and the military is satisfied with 9 mm. We can't let them make our choices for us!
Anybody for Jersey, New York, Chicago or D.C. care to chime in here?
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if it's a good shoot it shouldn't matter in a criminal case,BUT in a civil case you might get hung out to dry.Best thing would be to find out what round your local or state PD carry and use that same type round in your Carry gun.That way you can say if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me... ;)
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Just to play devil's advocate:
If FMJ ammo is such a bad choice for killing people, there are lot of dead Germans and Japanese who would beg to differ with the conventional wisdom.
As has been brought up before, I think it's shot placement and the number of shots on target that make the difference. I can tell you from personal experience that using HP ammo for self defenese ( this was against a drug dealer's pit bull ) is not a 100% man/dog stopper. But that .45 HP ammo sure did change its mind though....
For the record I do carry HP ammo and prefer it because I want to do the most damage I can possibly do in the shortest amount of time. I think the fellow who is basing his decision on self defense based strictly on cost is focusing on the wrong variable. He should be looking at what is the most effective round for saving his life.
Cheers!
-G
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I prefer factory hollow points for my edc guns under most circumstances. There are very few times I would recommend ball: it's all you've got being the primary reason. I have carried ball while swimming to avoid hollow points expanding in a very wet (or submersed) barrel. It may be best if you're in the wilderness and your primary concern is penetrating large critters. I also carry a magazine or two of 9 NATO in the truck just in case I find myself wanting to try and get some extra penetration through a car, etc.; however, I will likely have gone through a magazine or two of JHP's before I get to that point. And, that is definitely a point I never ever want to get to.
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Just to play devil's advocate:
If FMJ ammo is such a bad choice for killing people, there are lot of dead Germans and Japanese who would beg to differ with the conventional wisdom.
As has been brought up before, I think it's shot placement and the number of shots on target that make the difference. I can tell you from personal experience that using HP ammo for self defenese ( this was against a drug dealer's pit bull ) is not a 100% man/dog stopper. But that .45 HP ammo sure did change its mind though....
For the record I do carry HP ammo and prefer it because I want to do the most damage I can possibly do in the shortest amount of time. I think the fellow who is basing his decision on self defense based strictly on cost is focusing on the wrong variable. He should be looking at what is the most effective round for saving his life.
Cheers!
-G
With the understanding that you are simply stating an opposing view, not necessarily your own, I submit that your highlighted comment is meaningless because there is no data to show that the additional 60 years of development would not have led to many more dead Germans and Japanese for the same expenditure of ammunition.
Another reason the highlighted quote is meaningless is because it is comparing high velocity rifle ammunition, (apples) to lower velocity hand gun ammunition, (oranges )
Thirdly, it is a historical fact that soft nosed expanding bullets manufactured at the Dum Dum Arsenal in India were in fact more effective against South African Boers than were FMJ bullets until outlawed for military use as being "inhumane".
It is a further fact that military forces continue to use FMJ ammunition because of treaties signed in the early 1900's, not because of any relationship to the effectiveness of 21st century expanding ammunition.
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With the understanding that you are simply stating an opposing view, not necessarily your own, I submit that your highlighted comment is meaningless because there is no data to show that the additional 60 years of development would not have led to many more dead Germans and Japanese for the same expenditure of ammunition.
Another reason the highlighted quote is meaningless is because it is comparing high velocity rifle ammunition, (apples) to lower velocity hand gun ammunition, (oranges )
Thirdly, it is a historical fact that soft nosed expanding bullets manufactured at the Dum Dum Arsenal in India were in fact more effective against South African Boers than were FMJ bullets until outlawed for military use as being "inhumane".
It is a further fact that military forces continue to use FMJ ammunition because of treaties signed in the early 1900's, not because of any relationship to the effectiveness of 21st century expanding ammunition.
Let me clarify what I meant about FMJ ammo and dead enemy soldiers. I was referring to pistol caliber rounds fired from a Thompson Submachinegun for example. And on the opposite side there are many dead American, British, French, and Russian soldiers due to well placed 9mm rounds from a MP 40. Sorry for not being more clear about that...
My point is FMJ may not be the most efficient ammo for killing people but it sure is a far cry from being an absolute inferior option if that's all you have.
Can you provide the sources for your statements above? I would not mind reading what these authors had to say, as I like reading up on ballistic effectiveness over history.
Thanks!
-G
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1899 Hague Convention Tom!
silliness...
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Let me clarify what I meant about FMJ ammo and dead enemy soldiers. I was referring to pistol caliber rounds fired from a Thompson Submachinegun for example. And on the opposite side there are many dead American, British, French, and Russian soldiers due to well placed 9mm rounds from a MP 40. Sorry for not being more clear about that...
quote]
I'll contribute to the tread drift.
The Thompson is essentially a rifle using .45 ACP ammo. It is not a pistol. I suspect the velocity of a .45 round through a Thompson would be greater than that of a 5 inch barrel of the 1911 handgun. Also, the Thompson was not very accurate in full auto due to muzzle raise. It was used as a suppression weapon and not precision shooting.
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Let me clarify what I meant about FMJ ammo and dead enemy soldiers. I was referring to pistol caliber rounds fired from a Thompson Submachinegun for example. And on the opposite side there are many dead American, British, French, and Russian soldiers due to well placed 9mm rounds from a MP 40. Sorry for not being more clear about that...
My point is FMJ may not be the most efficient ammo for killing people but it sure is a far cry from being an absolute inferior option if that's all you have.
Can you provide the sources for your statements above? I would not mind reading what these authors had to say, as I like reading up on ballistic effectiveness over history.
Thanks!
-G
OK, that answers my apples vs oranges , but it still leaves the "no data for the HP's" argument.
I will cheerfully concede that FMJ beats the crap out of using rocks and pointy sticks.
The Information on the Dum Dum bullets, IIRC came from "the Boer War" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (yes that AC Doyle Sherlock Holmes wasn't all he wrote ;D )
As for the Armed Forces of signatory nations being limited to FMJ, Tim is right about the Hague convention of 1899, but there were further conventions reinforcing and updating that in the early 1920's (23 IIRC )
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At some point these threads on bullet or caliber choice all comes down to the same fact:
Nobody wants a leaky hole in their body! Leaky holes in the body are not good for living a long and full life! Shoot what you got and are comfortable with!
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At some point these threads on bullet or caliber choice all comes down to the same fact:
Nobody wants a leaky hole in their body! Leaky holes in the body are not good for living a long and full life! Shoot what you got and are comfortable with!
Don't be a wet blanket, after the 3rd post they all fall into the same category as .45 Vs 9MM, 1911 vs Glock and Ginger vs Mary Ann.
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Don't be a wet blanket, after the 3rd post they all fall into the same category as .45 Vs 9MM, 1911 vs Glock and Ginger vs Mary Ann.
True, but every four pages we need to have a pitstop for adjustments and refocus ;)
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At some point these threads on bullet or caliber choice all comes down to the same fact:
Nobody wants a leaky hole in their body! Leaky holes in the body are not good for living a long and full life! Shoot what you got and are comfortable with!
That is step 1.
Step 2: Work and practice to become comfortable with the most effective load and weapon you can.
Step 3: Make sure that is what you got with you.
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True, but every four pages we need to have a pitstop for adjustments and refocus ;)
Why ? ;D
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Why ? ;D
Because if we don't we turn into a forum named after a very popular semi-automatic rifle and start cussing and name calling ..... You F'n jackass ;D
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Because if we don't we turn into a forum named after a very popular semi-automatic rifle and start cussing and name calling ..... You F'n jackass ;D
HEY!!!...How come Tom is the only one that gets to be called that? ;D ;D ;D
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Hang around tuna breath, you're next!
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Hang around tuna breath, you're next!
Somebody's been eatin' their Wheaties again, eh?
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Having tuna breath doesn't make you a bad person.
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The main reason no is the over penetration of FMJ they just don't shed energy. HP's will of course pass through the human body but a significantly higher percentage of energy is imparted to the person being shot lessening the chance of someone being injured by that bullet after pass through. Understand that the foot lbs of energy created by your cartridge is only as relevant in so much as it can effectively transfer the energy created to the medium being shot. This applies to HP's also. A good example of this the 357 mag Vs the 357 Sig both are loaded to the same velocity from near the same barrel length yet the Sig hasn't matched the stopping power of the original Mag. Why? It's been found that the soft lead nose HP's of the 357 mag opened quicker and transferred energy better than the copper jacketed bullets of the Sig.
Also on why some trainers have advocated hardball. As velocity drops HP's become less reliable and more prone to failure to open. Until the advent of powerball, critical defense and low velocity designed HP's many did carry hardball ammo in 45acp depending on weight and diameter to impart energy. This is not a good idea with higher velocity rounds like the 9mm & 40S&W.
A final point every bullet you send out into the world has a personal return address to you. If you have to shot someone to protect yourself and you kill someone behind them or paralyze or brain damage a kid your not going to have Daddy Bloomberg standing behind you to settle with the victims like those involved in the NYPD Shooting. A jury may or may not be sympathetic to the fact that your life was endangered when they see some innocent person who has been impacted by your actions.
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The main reason no is the over penetration of FMJ they just don't shed energy. HP's will of course pass through the human body but a significantly higher percentage of energy is imparted to the person being shot lessening the chance of someone being injured by that bullet after pass through. Understand that the foot lbs of energy created by your cartridge is only as relevant in so much as it can effectively transfer the energy created to the medium being shot. This applies to HP's also. A good example of this the 357 mag Vs the 357 Sig both are loaded to the same velocity from near the same barrel length yet the Sig hasn't matched the stopping power of the original Mag. Why? It's been found that the soft lead nose HP's of the 357 mag opened quicker and transferred energy better than the copper jacketed bullets of the Sig.
Also on why some trainers have advocated hardball. As velocity drops HP's become less reliable and more prone to failure to open. Until the advent of powerball, critical defense and low velocity designed HP's many did carry hardball ammo in 45acp depending on weight and diameter to impart energy. This is not a good idea with higher velocity rounds like the 9mm & 40S&W.
A final point every bullet you send out into the world has a personal return address to you. If you have to shot someone to protect yourself and you kill someone behind them or paralyze or brain damage a kid your not going to have Daddy Bloomberg standing behind you to settle with the victims like those involved in the NYPD Shooting. A jury may or may not be sympathetic to the fact that your life was endangered when they see some innocent person who has been impacted by your actions.
That's the point I was trying to make with my earlier comment that a HP might fail to expand but FMJ never would.
TWillis said it much more clearly than I did.
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The FMJs I carry are 230 gr ball and 165 TMJ. I doubt the TMJ would over penetrate any more than the ball. Anyone worried about over penetration should carry frangible s. Although the new line of EFMJ bullets seem to be a good round..
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Having tuna breath doesn't make you a bad person.
Depends if you're the tuna or not! 8)
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The FMJs I carry are 230 gr ball and 165 TMJ. I doubt the TMJ would over penetrate any more than the ball. Anyone worried about over penetration should carry frangible s. Although the new line of EFMJ bullets seem to be a good round..
I would have left them out of the discussion for 2 reasons,
First, they are neither fish nor fowl, while they are FMJ they are designed as an expanding bullet and should be considered in the generic " HP" category since they are a perfect example of "what a difference 100 years can make".
Secondly the OP's buddy's primary reasoning is price, he's a cheap skate who if he won't send the money on regular HP's sure won't pay for EFMJ.
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I would have left them out of the discussion for 2 reasons,
First, they are neither fish nor fowl, while they are FMJ they are designed as an expanding bullet and should be considered in the generic " HP" category since they are a perfect example of "what a difference 100 years can make".
Secondly the OP's buddy's primary reasoning is price, he's a cheap skate who if he won't send the money on regular HP's sure won't pay for EFMJ.
LOL, yeah, Im still hoarding Black Talons, and I buy no name rounds by the bag, but they do have Gold Dot HPs for bullets. MY thoughts on rounds are like my thoughts on guns, better to have some, than none. ;D
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The main reason no is the over penetration of FMJ they just don't shed energy. HP's will of course pass through the human body but a significantly higher percentage of energy is imparted to the person being shot lessening the chance of someone being injured by that bullet after pass through. ...
Ummm ... in a word ... no. There is no "shedding" of energy or "imparting" of energy to a body. Energy is only used. In the case of FMJ, no energy is used aside from that used to penetrate. JHP ammo does not dump, shed or impart energy. It simply uses energy to penetrate and possibly expand. Expansion causes a bigger wound track, but results in - comparatively - little loss of energy as a result ... assuming we are talking about the standard kinds of duty/defense loads in common use.
Almost any bullet which over-penetrates retains enough energy to injure/wound/kill another person. The physics are such that almost any case of an FMJ over-penetrating would over-penetrate with an analogous JHP as well. The danger of over-penetration is almost (statistically speaking) mythological in comparison to the documented danger of failing to hit what you are shooting at. A flyer or miss represents a much greater chance of killing an innocent.
The original intent of HP designs was indeed an attempt to make "safer bullets". It just didn't work out that way. Any design which potentially expands enough (with a given amount of energy) while not over-penetrating, does so with the trade off of not penetrating sufficiently when expanded. Any round which meets FBI standards for expansion/penetration does so with the trade off that it will in fact over-penetrate in a high percentage of cases. That's just how the physics work out.
At any rate, JHP designs do not expand as reliably as many think in real-world shootings. You often end up with essentially a FMJ anyway. The choice to use JHP should based upon the potential of larger wounds, not on any false notions regarding the dangers of over-penetration.
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Ummm ... in a word ... no. There is no "shedding" of energy or "imparting" of energy to a body. Energy is only used. In the case of FMJ, no energy is used aside from that used to penetrate. JHP ammo does not dump, shed or impart energy. It simply uses energy to penetrate and possibly expand. Expansion causes a bigger wound track, but results in - comparatively - little loss of energy as a result.
Almost any bullet which over-penetrates retains enough energy to injure/wound/kill another person. The physics are such that almost any case of an FMJ over-penetrating would over-penetrate with an analogous JHP as well. The danger of over-penetration is almost (statistically speaking) mythological in comparison to the documented danger of failing to hit what you are shooting at. A flyer or miss represents a much greater chance of killing an innocent.
The original intent of HP designs was indeed an attempt to make "safer bullets". It just didn't work out that way. Any design which potentially expands enough (with a given amount of energy) while not over-penetrating, does so with the trade off of not penetrating sufficiently when expanded. Any round which meets FBI standards for expansion/penetration does so with the trade off that it will in fact over-penetrate in a high percentage of cases. That's just how the physics work out.
BS.
Larger frontal area ( what causes the "bigger wound track" in your previous paragraph ) means increased drag .
Of 2 objects at the same velocity the one with the larger diameter,IE the greater drag, will stop first .
Where does the velocity generated energy go ?
Into the medium through which the object is traveling. .
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BS.
Larger frontal area ( what causes the "bigger wound track" in your previous paragraph ) means increased drag .
Of 2 objects at the same velocity the one with the larger diameter,IE the greater drag, will stop first .
Where does the velocity generated energy go ?
Into the medium through which the object is traveling. .
You're doing a good job of (re?)defining the terminology, but not really countering the case I made. In standard physical terms, energy is either transferred from one object to another, or is used to "do work". A good example of transfer would be a cue-ball striking the 8-ball ... energy is transferred from one ball to the other. After the transfer ... the 8-ball has energy it did not have before, which it then uses to "do work" ... i.e. moving. Once the ball has stopped moving there is no energy left in the ball.
In the case of terminal-ballistic effects, there is no "transfer" of energy from the rounds to the target, the energy is simply used to (do work) penetrate, crush and move tissue. You could argue that energy is "transferred" to the body, and that the energy is used to "do work" ... expansion and penetration, creating a wound channel. In a practical sense, terminal ballistics are never described that way, nor do any of the various formula acknowledge such an effect. If you wanted to get really picky, any residual energy is expressed (with handgun rounds) as slight elevations of temperature, but no actual wounding effects. But let's be honest with each other here ... whenever someone is talking about "energy dump" or "energy transfer" in the gun world, they are almost assuredly talking about some kind of magical secondary wounding effects aside from those created by the wound channel itself. My comments are/were meant to counter exactly such a notion. If there is any misunderstanding between any of us on this point, let's just have that cleared up right here.
Regarding expansion vs. penetration ... my comments stand. The ideal round would be one which expanded completely and reliable in all or most cases, penetrating enough to pop out the other side and plop neatly on the ground, and doing so at that point with insufficient energy to further wound or kill. A round which does not adequately penetrate does not "dump" some kind of energy to the target ... it simply runs out of energy to do any more work. Inadequate penetration is a larger problem than lack -of-expansion ... a fully expanded round which does not penetrate to vital structures is not an effective round.
The problem is that there is no way to design round which will reliably penetrate to vital structures in some cases which will not over-penetrate in others. It's not as though we have a static model for our design, with only one target type and composition, and always being shot at a single distance at a particular angle.
The better duty and defense rounds are designed to roughly match the IWBA/FBI standards. Any rounds meeting those standards must reliably penetrate (with or without expansion) sufficiently to reach vital structures, through large enough sections of body mass at oblique angles (i.e. "sideways"). This means that such rounds would almost certainly over-penetrate at square-on angles with enough energy left to wound/kill another individual. Designing a round which would not over-penetrate at square-on angles would mean it could not penetrate sufficiently at oblique angles. You can't have it both ways, as there is always a trade off in any systems which has to balance these kinds of performance characteristics.
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I'm just a guitar player, but if a cue ball transfers energy to another ball by hitting it, why doesn't a bullet transfer energy to flesh and bone when it hits? Impact transfers energy. Not ALL the energy in a round or it would stop dead (pardon the pun).
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I'm just a guitar player, but if a cue ball transfers energy to another ball by hitting it, why doesn't a bullet transfer energy to flesh and bone when it hits? Impact transfers energy. Not ALL the energy in a round or it would stop dead (pardon the pun).
It's probably splitting hairs ... like noting that Newtonian physics is actually wrong, but still using it because the equations for relativity are frikkn' HARD, and Newton's stuff is as accurate as you need it to be for what you are describing or calculating.
The point is that - other than expansion and penetration - there isn't anything else of note happening.
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It's probably splitting hairs ... like noting that Newtonian physics is actually wrong, but still using it because the equations for relativity are frikkn' HARD, and Newton's stuff is as accurate as you need it to be for what you are describing or calculating.
The point is that - other than expansion and penetration - there isn't anything else of note happening.
No heat generated? I'd guess that really isn't of note...but it will be happening. There will also be energy used to create the temporary wound channel, which I guess can be thought of as a function of penetration and expansion...
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Regarding expansion vs. penetration ... my comments stand. The ideal round would be one which expanded completely and reliable in all or most cases, penetrating enough to pop out the other side and plop neatly on the ground, and doing so at that point with insufficient energy to further wound or kill. A round which does not adequately penetrate does not "dump" some kind of energy to the target ... it simply runs out of energy to do any more work. Inadequate penetration is a larger problem than lack -of-expansion ... a fully expanded round which does not penetrate to vital structures is not an effective round.
The problem is that there is no way to design round which will reliably penetrate to vital structures in some cases which will not over-penetrate in others. It's not as though we have a static model for our design, with only one target type and composition, and always being shot at a single distance at a particular angle.
I have made similarly-based statements in past conversations at my range.
Hard to have a "one size fits all" SD round.
Ammo makers are basically trying to provide what will work in "most" cases.
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No heat generated? I'd guess that really isn't of note...but it will be happening. ...
I mentioned heat in an earlier post:
... If you wanted to get really picky, any residual energy is expressed (with handgun rounds) as slight elevations of temperature, but no actual wounding effects. ...
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I don't know...the energy statistics on rounds... a thump on your kidney or liver and then a tearing wound right through the organ? The natural bruising from the transferred impact energy coupled with broken blood vessels...that's additional damage.
I"m just not buying the minimalist approach..there's so much data out there that a round entering the body transfers energy, and the transfer occurs as an IMPACT- damaging, PLUS a gaping wound if your round is large enough and expands enough? Sounds like there are factors in that equation you might want to enhance. It's not "all the same".
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You're right Jay, if it were "all the same" then ammo companies would not have spent the last 110+ years on research and development of soft point and hollow point bullets.
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I don't see where anyone said anything about "they're all the same". Did I miss it? Seems like a strawman to me.
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Things (as usual, ;D ) kinda got tangentially sidetracked from the original topic.....which was FMJ for self defense.
IMHO, the bottom line on that is FMJ is better than nothing at all.....and pretty anything else is better than FMJ.
Heck, I think a wadcutter is better than FMJ...but that's just me.
Laying all the technical and physics aside, and like I alluded to earlier, there is no 'magic bullet' for SD. They might have a few 'one-size-fits-most-cases' rounds on the market..... but nothing is going to work 100% of the time in every situation.... just too many variables...... But every ammo maker out there, as Tom was getting at, is always trying to come up with the next better thing.
Like Zombie said, the perfect SD round would open up fast, to maximum diameter, penetrate completely through, while destroying as much tissue as possible and stopping in the first layer of clothing on the opposite side......
Probably never happen.
Maybe some day they will get close.....but until then, we have debates like this, which is good, and continue to carry what we feel is the best round we can carry.
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The "transfer of energy" would be the equivelent of getting high fived by a 10 yr old. About what you feel when you shoot a handgun round.
The main difference being that the energy hopefully is used tearing up vital stuff if you hit where you intended.
I use JHPs because I want that energy to expend heat, shock, or whatever in expanding and hopefully not exiting. If it does and hits someone innocent, (after using a bunch of that energy in whatever form is the current parlance), it may not have enough energy to penetrate to be fatal.
I will also hopefully have an attorney that is well prepared to explain how JHPs are used by the police because they are safer.
That's a lot of hoping which is a product of using a gun for SD.
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Ummm ... in a word ... no. There is no "shedding" of energy or "imparting" of energy to a body. Energy is only used. In the case of FMJ, no energy is used aside from that used to penetrate. JHP ammo does not dump, shed or impart energy. It simply uses energy to penetrate and possibly expand. Expansion causes a bigger wound track, but results in - comparatively - little loss of energy as a result ... assuming we are talking about the standard kinds of duty/defense loads in common use.
Almost any bullet which over-penetrates retains enough energy to injure/wound/kill another person. The physics are such that almost any case of an FMJ over-penetrating would over-penetrate with an analogous JHP as well. The danger of over-penetration is almost (statistically speaking) mythological in comparison to the documented danger of failing to hit what you are shooting at. A flyer or miss represents a much greater chance of killing an innocent.
The original intent of HP designs was indeed an attempt to make "safer bullets". It just didn't work out that way. Any design which potentially expands enough (with a given amount of energy) while not over-penetrating, does so with the trade off of not penetrating sufficiently when expanded. Any round which meets FBI standards for expansion/penetration does so with the trade off that it will in fact over-penetrate in a high percentage of cases. That's just how the physics work out.
At any rate, JHP designs do not expand as reliably as many think in real-world shootings. You often end up with essentially a FMJ anyway. The choice to use JHP should based upon the potential of larger wounds, not on any false notions regarding the dangers of over-penetration.
I don't usually quote full posts but this is utter nonsense and dangerously wrong. As an engineer who has spent time reading the peer reviewed literature there is almost nothing in this post that does not contradict the science of ballistics. Go read Mas Ayoob on the real street cases he has reviewed where good guys are injured by pass throughs. this was all settled in the 70's and 80's when LEos quit using FMJ in spite of political pressure against HP ammo.
All bullets lose energy to their surroundings all the time; barrel friction, air resistance and then to whatever they hit.
Think of a bullet hitting a steel plate it DUMPS its energy into the steel plate and knocks it over or if is a 556 it generates enough HEAT to burn a hole through the plate. It is all about friction, surface area and the yield point of the material being hit.
Don't be an arrogant ass, listen to the experts with real world experience and stop carrying FMJ rounds. If nothing else it it will help you survive the trial after the shooting.
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........As an engineer who has spent time reading the peer reviewed literature there is almost nothing in this post that does not contradict the science of ballistics. Go read Mas Ayoob on the real street cases he has reviewed where good guys are injured by pass throughs. this was all settled in the 70's and 80's when LEos quit using FMJ in spite of political pressure against HP ammo.
All bullets lose energy to their surroundings all the time; barrel friction, air resistance and then to whatever they hit.
Think of a bullet hitting a steel plate it DUMPS its energy into the steel plate and knocks it over or if is a 556 it generates enough HEAT to burn a hole through the plate. It is all about friction, surface area and the yield point of the material being hit.
Say what, now?
You had me up to that point. I can agree with your first part about losing energy from the point of ignition onward........but,
2800 degree Fahrenheit .22 bullets melting through?
Lost me there.
A bullet acts for a fraction of a second. Rapid deceleration enhances this force. A bullet's force acts proportionally to how resistant the target is to its forward travel. When a bullet hits steel it starts building force at it's leading edge.... until something yields: Either the plate gets knocked over, or the bullet punches through.
The fact that a bullet may act for only a split second does not discount the tremendous force that can accumulate. The same cannot be said when you are trying to melt something. The faster the work is done the greater the energy needs are.
You would think that a "faster" bullet would be more likely generate "melting" heat. IMO, the fast bullet is actually less likely to transfer heat to a target it will ultimately penetrate because it has even less time to act. It's more like punching a hole in a sheet of tin with a hammer and nail....just with a bullet, the force is applied at a higher rate.
What happens when you shoot into heavy paper, say a phone book. It's clear that high heat is not needed for penetration. I've never set a book on fire with a bullet.
I am vaguely aware of a depleted uranium tipped round that our military has that may generate 'melting heat' when it pierces thick tank armor. But I believe the difference is in the ultra high speed (energy), tremendously dense mass and thick steel. The melting actually does not start till the projectile is well into the thick steel.
Shoot a hole in a steel plate and then go touch the plate immediately after the shot. The plate will not be hot enough to indicate that the hole was melted through. It takes a lot of heat to melt through a plate and a bit of time even with a cutting torch, also remember that the lead melts at a lower temperature than does steel......... so the core of the bullet would be molten and the jacket would split and the lead splatter on impact.
JMHO.....
I am not a scientist, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night........
YMMV. ;D
*Momentum is a bitch, though.
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If a twenty-two caliber bullet traveling at 2,000+ fps were "burning" through the metal wouldn't we see splatter much like you get from a cutting torch or plasma cutter? When I take my .223/5.56 or .22/250 to steel plates at 100 yards and they punch through, I see a clean hole with metal upset out both front and back. The upset is sharp with no signs of heat erosion.
Heat = removal of metal
Impact = displacement and distortion of metal
My experience has been impact.
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<<<<< I make a living cutting metal<<<<<<<
Paper burns at 451 degrees (or spontaneously ignites)! Steel at 2750...
A bullet traveling at any rate of speed will not produce enough energy to melt steel, period. It's impact energy either punches through or bounces off after expending that energy...besides, brass has a relatively low melting point of around 900-950 degrees. If there were enough frictional forces to heat a bullet to melt steel, it would melt itself prior to reaching the required temperature if were 100% brass, which it ain't!!!! It's mostly lead which melts at about 650...
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<<<<< I make a living cutting metal<<<<<<<
Paper burns at 451 degrees (or spontaneously ignites)! Steel at 2750...
A bullet traveling at any rate of speed will not produce enough energy to melt steel, period. It's impact energy either punches through or bounces off after expending that energy...besides, brass has a relatively low melting point of around 900-950 degrees. If there were enough frictional forces to heat a bullet to melt steel, it would melt itself prior to reaching the required temperature if were 100% brass, which it ain't!!!! It's mostly lead which melts at about 650...
Oh good..I get to Nit Pik ;D
It won't bounce off if all the energy is expended..it will fall to the ground... the rebound uses the rest of the energy after it wasn't sufficient to penetrate the target.
Told ya it was nit picking ;D
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Oh good..I get to Nit Pik ;D
It won't bounce off if all the energy is expended..it will fall to the ground... the rebound uses the rest of the energy after it wasn't sufficient to penetrate the target.
Told ya it was nit picking ;D
Isaac Newton has his say in all things physical!
;D
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Oh good..I get to Nit Pik ;D
It won't bounce off if all the energy is expended..it will fall to the ground... the rebound uses the rest of the energy after it wasn't sufficient to penetrate the target.
Told ya it was nit picking ;D
Now I'm going to nit pick your nit picking ! ;D
It will bounce off because the bullet has expended all it's energy and has nothing left to counter the combined energies of gravity forcing it toward the ground and the energy of the metal trying to return to its original position and shape forcing it backwards.
Impact distortion may prevent it from completing the return, but it will exert energy making the attempt .
Similar to the reason machined barrels need "stress relief".
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Now I'm going to nit pick your nit picking ! ;D
It will bounce off because the bullet has expended all it's energy and has nothing left to counter the combined energies of gravity forcing it toward the ground and the energy of the metal trying to return to its original position and shape forcing it backwards.
Impact distortion may prevent it from completing the return, but it will exert energy making the attempt .
Similar to the reason machined barrels need "stress relief".
You may be right... or maybe right in this special case... or maybe mine is the special case
What I'm getting at is what would happen if the target was (impossibly) 100% incompressible? Would the bullet just splatter? What would happen if the bullet didn't have enough energy to totally splatter itself? Might drop to the ground.
I know this doesn't really matter in the overall scheme of things...but I have it as a "thought" problem now. Any one with enough physics background, add their Nit :D :D
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I recall an episode of Mythbusters where they were doing some experiments shooing into water. They shot .223/5.56, 30-06, 50 BMG and a few pistol calibers.
All of the really high velocity stuff fragmented to itty bitty pieces when they hit water. I suspect hitting an impenetrable metallic surface would be much the same.
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I don't know if it adds anything to the conversation but it is fun to watch.
Looks like there is a little plasma action going on there.
It would be nice to know the technical background on each shot.
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Amazing!!
In one of the early ones, the tail end of the bullet did seem to start to fall after the fireworks were over...but it ended to soon to be sure.
Something else that surprised me. In the set where a small round ball hit what appeared to be a pistol bullet, there appeared to be very little deflection of the pistol bullet. Seeing the impact I expected more...
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In some of the early shots, you could see a rounded plug flying out the back (@ the :55 mark) ....... Don't know if it's the mushroomed bullet or a plug of steel........looked like the plugs out of an Ironworker.
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In some of the early shots, you could a rounded plug flying out the back (@ the :55 mark) ....... Don't know if it's the mushroomed bullet or a plug of steel........looked like the plugs out of an Ironworker.
I saw that ..but didn't look again. My thought was it looked like the base of the bullet going in...but that was just an impression.
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OK I got sloppy with my word choice. The round produces enough concentrated force to cause the steel to FLOW out of the way. The video I have seen in slow mo shows the metal exceeding its plasticity point and flowing and spattering not just being punched through. The round does not survive the interaction either to carry on into the next barrier.
It does not change the stupidity of think there is no difference between FMJ and bullets designed to expand on contact.
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It would be nice to know the technical background on each shot.
This page has info and videos together: http://www.kurzzeit.com/eng/videos.htm (http://www.kurzzeit.com/eng/videos.htm)
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It does not change the stupidity of think there is no difference between FMJ and bullets designed to expand on contact.
I'll buy that for a dollar..... ;D ;D ;D
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Holy Crap! This thread is still going? And we're still (mostly) on topic? I gotta sit down.......
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Holy Crap! This thread is still going? And we're still (mostly) on topic? I gotta sit down.......
Yep....even after 8 pages.... ;D ;D ;D
We may debate on what plays to run ....but we seem to get to the end-zone nonetheless. ;)
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Yep....even after 8 pages.... ;D ;D ;D
We may debate on what plays to run ....but we seem to get to the end-zone nonetheless. ;)
And when we arrive, we spike the ball and..........
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Well I know this is an old thread but I just want to ad my 2 cents and am amazed no one has said this.
I think round choice FMJ to Hollowpoint is really a personal choice. And also along with that I have to believe your environment is just as important.
The military uses FMJ in both 9mm and 5.56 with effect. But also they do not care about over penetration. If you look at SF guys doing CQB hostage resue type stuff they usually pack HP just for the case of less penetration. You don't want it to go thru Bad guy and thru wall and hit good citzen. Also obviously caliber size. When shootings 9mm you hope it expands to close to .45. So if you are shooting .45acp is expansion necessary.
If you are hiking do you want to shoot JHP with the possibility of having to shoot thru foliage. Just me I would rather have a FMJ to slip thru it. We are talking about some extreme case there most instances would happen in the clear in the trail. But one thing I think about. I definitely would not want to shoot FMJ 124gr 9mm in an apartment. So this to me is subjective. And really even down to ,380 FJM is going to work. You still get hydro static shock and plenty of damage. I do not feel at all under gunned by FMJ ammo. It was employed around the world and used by most of the fiercest killers in out history.
JHP ammo in the realm of how we think about it is relatively new. People used softer non jacketed ammo (lead). The Colt Army Navy I believe shot a round .44 lead ball. It had no problem putting people down.
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I prefer jhp in most cases. However, I have and will carry/use ball for some scenarios. If I'm in/around lots of water, ball will likely be my carry choice because they won't expand in the water. In the woods, I carry depending on what I'm most concerned about encountering. People and only people, jhp loaded and in the spare mag; people first critters second, jhp loaded and fmj I'm the spare mag; critters first people second, fmj or likely hard cast loaded and know in the spare mag. My reasoning is that ball is better for critter penetration but less so for people, but will be better than nothing on people. And vice versa. I also carry some 9 NATO in the truck if penetration is preferred in a given situation.
I primarily carry 9&10mm. I want max expansion in most cases. If I carried a 45, I wouldn't want to negate that advantage in size by not having it expand too.
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Being in NJ we would only fire in self defense on our property or home and 99% probably in the home. Here we also have the duty to retreat, so we would naturally retreat to the closest gun. Problem is, that's usually not somewhere where there's maneuvering room, so no choice as to which DIRECTION you can engage.
Having said all that, we have softened all of our loads in the home. The shotty has birdshot, the 357 and 45 is Critical Defense (HP with plastic insert), the 9mm is frangible ball. We try to minimize through-wall penetration. NJ is a little hinky about regular HP ammo too. it's legal, but if they somehow determine that you were not 100% in the right, then all of a sudden you used HP in a "crime" and you're screwed, so we try to avoid straight HP.
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NJ is a little hinky about regular HP ammo too. it's legal, but if they somehow determine that you were not 100% in the right, then all of a sudden you used HP in a "crime" and you're screwed, so we try to avoid straight HP.
That sucks on a whole bunch of levels.
Too bad the PRNJ isn't in the United States is in occupied territory.
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The military uses FMJ in both 9mm and 5.56 with effect. But also they do not care about over penetration.
I do not feel at all under gunned by FMJ ammo. It was employed around the world and used by most of the fiercest killers in out history.
JHP ammo in the realm of how we think about it is relatively new. People used softer non jacketed ammo (lead). The Colt Army Navy I believe shot a round .44 lead ball. It had no problem putting people down.
Can't agree with where you are going here.
The military uses FMJ because some feel good lawyers all got together in Geneva and told them they had to. As you pointed out when they can avoid it they do.
You can use bullets designed to dump their energy inside the target or you can use FMJ and know that you are likely to have the bullet pass through the target. Having the bullet make the biggest wound channel possible and then poke an exit hole and fall to the ground right behind the target gives the highest chance of stopping the threat.
If you use a bullet designed to expand it will either work as designed or fail to expand depending on conditions (plug up with cloth etc.) If it fails to expand you are back to FMJ performance. All the research lately has been to improve the performance to get the expansion under all conditions (through barriers etc.) This is harder than you might think.
Old soft nosed lead bullet designs were usually another way to get expansion while keeping bullet weight.
Read massad Ayoob's book on concealed carry. He has a chapter on real world data for shot throughs by LEOs and others. When you see the data it is clear that FMJ for SD is a bad idea.
All the internet theories are entertaining but actual real world and experimental data trumps all the fiction writers.
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It's just like any other form of work.
Do you want to "make do", or do you want the tool designed for the job ?