The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on August 07, 2015, 08:45:47 AM
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Is it me, or did it seem like they, (Fox), were "out to get" Trump last night? First off, the question Megan Kelly asked him, about calling women names, (in reference to his go around with Rosie O'Donnell some years back), seemed stupid and out of place for a political front runner. And it was the first question she hit him with.
Second, it didn't seem as though he received much air time compared to Bush or even Walker, considering he's leading both by over twice as many percentage points. The questions put to him seemed poorly scripted from a political standpoint. Some downright stupid. His answers were pretty much what he said in most of his campaign speeches. It just seemed as if they were trying to go out of their way to diminish him. Much the same as they did with Ron Paul in the 2012 debates. Don't get me wrong, I thought Paul was a kook like most, but it really seemed like the media, even Fox, went out of their way to make him look as bad as they possibly could.
This makes me wonder if the media, including Fox, is in bed with the established party members. Why for example would they ask right off the bat, if anyone would run independently, and not support the Republican nominee, when they know damn good and well Trump was the only one to even suggest such a thing? They knew it would accomplish nothing but making him look bad. This, even though Trump said he was just keeping the option open to him. As he said after the debates, "Why should I give up that political leverage?" While I hope to hell he doesn't, I understand why he would say that. Fox only accomplished making him look bad, bringing up something everyone already knew the answer to.
All of this seemed painfully obvious. I hope this doesn't hurt his poll numbers. But according to the people that Frank Luntz had wired up, their opinion changed heavily of Trump from positive to negative. That as well, could have been easily rigged to get the point they wanted to make.
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This makes me wonder if the media, including Fox, is in bed with the established party members.
That's exactly what is going on! That wasn't a "debate" in any sense of the word but a "take out anyone that isn't part of the establishment" show.
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Read a comment earlier today.
"It's time to start having the media report the debate, and stop controlling it."
And I'm not surprised Trump would be "hindered" by the media....the "Establishment" won't tolerate "outsiders" in their party.
The media has another problem with Trump. He is not gonna kiss their butts and they know it and don't like it.
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Stop allowing the media to write the questions and stop letting pundits be the moderators. These debates should be hosted by local RNC (or DNC) chapters, and the moderators should be chosen from those that host.
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It wasn't about narrowing down the field. It was about raising Fox's rating's.
Even Meghan Kelly came across as a douche bag.
And all the networks, including Glenn Beck hate the Donald.
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I hated the way Megyn Kelly behaved last night, but I still enjoyed looking at her. ;D
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The word is Fox has been taking a tremendous amount of viewer heat from it. Trumps poll numbers haven't budged. That tells you something right there. I'll bet he gets a bump out of this. Attack the front runner who's the choice of the people. How the hell did they expect that to play out?
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They all hate Trump because he is paying his own way so they have no control over him.
All the others are taking money from the party so have to toe the line to a certain extent.
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This has really exposed the media for what they are. Especially Fox. "Fair & Balanced", yeah right. If they can't control it, they have to try and destroy it. POS's all.
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Now I'm even suspect of that asshole Frank Luntz. His whole "Focus Group" seemed to be a plant, right in line with Kelly's stupid questions. Most all of them said they had a favorable opinion of Trump going into this thing. Afterward mostly all of them said their opinions went from positive to negative of him.
Then how come if his "wired up pollsters" reflect an accurate cross section of Trump supporters, Trump's poll numbers haven't crashed? This whole damn thing stinks to high heaven.
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For anyone who missed the debate and wants to see it, Fox Business Channel is replaying it tonight. You only need to watch the first 5 minutes to get what we're talking about.
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Are any of you actually considering voting for this egomaniacal narcissist? I realize he IS saying what everyone wants and needs to hear but the question of a third party run needed to be asked and answered...he failed to provide the correct answer.
He's done for me! Never even got out of the gate, really! He's a circus side show..
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I prefer Walker, Jindal, Or Cruz. But if Trump gets the nomination I'll vote for him.
If it's Bush or Christie I'll vote Democrat.
If Trump goes 3rd party the Dems will win.
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Are any of you actually considering voting for this egomaniacal narcissist? I realize he IS saying what everyone wants and needs to hear but the question of a third party run needed to be asked and answered...he failed to provide the correct answer.
He's done for me! Never even got out of the gate, really! He's a circus side show..
What you have now is a circus side show. If there ever was a pig, political whore with lipstick, it's Obama. I can't believe the same people who put up with Obama's antics without criticism, are the same ones who diss on Trump. Trump is a billionaire businessman with an ego, who doesn't give a damn what he says, when he says it, where he say's it, or who he say's it to. And he doesn't care who's watching or listening. Everyone thinks he's getting himself in trouble except him. How much "trouble" can he be in when he's leading by double digits? And the reason he's leading is because of what and who he is. Why should he change? No one knows what will happen 9 months down the road. The political "experts" wrote him off after he dissed McCain. He's now leading by an even greater percentage.
Can anyone show me a billionaire business man worth a damn who doesn't have an ego? Unless they're too old and boring to care, (Warren Buffet). Trump could care less about acting and sounding "Presidential". This has always been what Obama thrives on. He's nothing but an empty head who needs to be plugged into a Teleprompter to even speak. When he tries to do it without one, it takes him 15 minutes to put a sentence together. And when he's finished, it made no sense.
We're a capitalist nation. Trump is the ultimate capitalist. Brash, a big ego, bites back hard at anyone who he thinks is against him. Most of us would do much the same. He's not a groomed, professional politician. If you scoured the Earth, you couldn't find another candidate more polar opposite of Obama than Trump. THAT is why people like him. Also the fact the Republican establishment and the media HATES him. And the only reason they hate him is the fact they can't control him.
At this point the Republican establishment would rather throw the election, rather than give Trump the nomination. Because if they did, and he won, it would be the end of the Republican Party as we know it. And that would satisfy most Republican voters to no end.
The very fact the Republican Party cannot control him. And the media hates him, should tell you everything you need to know. That alone is enough for me to vote for him. Whatever happens after that has to be better than the communist idiot we've got now.
People are not supporting Trump because they think he's that wonderful. They're supporting him because of the hatred they've built inside for both Obama, as well as establishment Republicans. That isn't going away anytime soon, believe me. And remember, the Democratic Party is no longer. They are all hard core Saul Alinsky communists.
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Tell 'em Bill.
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I've changed my position on Trump. If he is leading at Republican Convention time, and they give it to someone else. I hope and pray he runs third party and train wrecks the election. And I hope he keeps coming back to train wreck it every 4 years. And keeps doing it until the Republican Party totally evaporates. The country is finished if he doesn't win. So you tell me, what the hell is the difference?
The current Republican Party is much like a sick, suffering, old dog. It needs to be put out of it's misery. Not left to go on languishing , and being painful to even look at, because it can no longer function. It just lay's there, pi$$ing on itself...... And the odor is building.
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All valid points, Bill but it still doesn't change much.
I don't think he can get elected. Might be another election where I vote for my dog.... Lord knows my vote in the presidential election means absolutely nothing where I live.
Hillary or Bernie will take the Northeast, without a doubt...
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You have to remember, Trump is gaining ground as fast as Hillary is losing it. And nothing is hurting him in the process. Sanders is a genuine threat. He was laughed at just like Trump was at first. The communist Democrats are as sick of Clinton, as the Republicans are of Bush. Americans will no longer vote for outdated retreads. Even Romney was smart enough to figure that out.
And I think Warren, (a pure communist if there ever was one), will get in once she see's for certain Hillary is sunk. It seems the more these candidates say they won't run, the greater chance there is they will.
Obama, and establishment Republicans have fueled a hatred in this country never before seen. At least not in my lifetime. Political hate is a powerful thing. Trump is merely the surfer riding that wave of hate. And he's got a damn good chance of riding it all the way into shore. And the more the Republican establishment tries to hurt him, the higher his star will rise.
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Yea, I forgot about Lizzie "Borden-Pocahontas" Warren..
She's a real hack...but she really only has one line to run on.."The middle class is just getting hammered!"
Applause, applause, applause...
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I prefer Walker, Jindal, Or Cruz. But if Trump gets the nomination I'll vote for him.
If it's Bush or Christie I'll vote Democrat.
If Trump goes 3rd party the Dems will win.
Pretty much my preference for candidates, but if you decide not to vote Republican, don't vote Democrat.
Pick a third party. Libertarians are probably the most established...but still haven't won federal positions, but there is also the Modern Whigs party...and others.
Libertarians do manage to get ballot access in all 50 states..but that doesn't help get them to the debates.
The problem 3rd party's have is that ballot access is very much rigged against them by the two major parties. Access goes by the number of votes the party earned in a recent election. Without enough votes, the major portion of a 3rd party's funds go to canvasing for signatures to get on state ballots for presidential races.
Then, because the same bias applies to getting into any debate, they have very limited funds to get their message to the voters.
So at least put your vote someplace where it might help "strike a blow" to the two sides of the "Establishment" party.
DISCLAIMER: I saw what Billt is saying as true back in 1991. I've been a "card carrying" Libertarian since 7/1/91
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Nope, if it isn't one of my preferred candidates I'm going to vote for the most blatant communist I can find and wait for things to collapse so we can start killing the Muslims, Illegals, and liberals.
I've said it before, the Dems don't have a hope in hell of winning this election and they know it, that's why they are running losers like Hillary, and Bernie. Their best back up is Fauxcahontas, and Greasy Joe ?
Their only hope is for the establishment Republicans to throw it away with some piece of shot like Bush, Christie, or Graham. Huckabee is no better.
In that case the only solution is to make the impending collapse come as quick as possible so the dictatorship that will follow can get to work fixing what the dumbassed voters have screwed up.
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Nope, if it isn't one of my preferred candidates I'm going to vote for the most blatant communist I can find and wait for things to collapse so we can start killing the Muslims, Illegals, and liberals.
I've said it before, the Dems don't have a hope in hell of winning this election and they know it, that's why they are running losers like Hillary, and Bernie. Their best back up is Fauxcahontas, and Greasy Joe ?
Their only hope is for the establishment Republicans to throw it away with some piece of shot like Bush, Christie, or Graham. Huckabee is no better.
In that case the only solution is to make the impending collapse come as quick as possible so the dictatorship that will follow can get to work fixing what the dumbassed voters have screwed up.
The Ammo box is a crap shoot....where we are likely to be fighting enemies ...both foreign and domestic...
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Pretty much my preference for candidates, but if you decide not to vote Republican, don't vote Democrat.
Pick a third party. Libertarians are probably the most established...but still haven't won federal positions, but there is also the Modern Whigs party...and others.
Libertarians do manage to get ballot access in all 50 states..but that doesn't help get them to the debates.
The problem 3rd party's have is that ballot access is very much rigged against them by the two major parties. Access goes by the number of votes the party earned in a recent election. Without enough votes, the major portion of a 3rd party's funds go to canvasing for signatures to get on state ballots for presidential races.
Then, because the same bias applies to getting into any debate, they have very limited funds to get their message to the voters.
So at least put your vote someplace where it might help "strike a blow" to the two sides of the "Establishment" party.
DISCLAIMER: I saw what Billt is saying as true back in 1991. I've been a "card carrying" Libertarian since 7/1/91
I'm with Solus on this one.
If we wanted to truly have an open election, we'd take all of the party affiliations off the ballot and take away straight ticket voting. It would make people actually have to research who they're voting for and at least become a little bit informed.
As for The Donald, here's my problem with him:
1. Can he put aside his personal business interests and give his undivided attention needed to run the country? Personally, I don't think his ego would allow that.
2. His only platform so far is "Build a wall" and "Make deals". That doesn't quite cut it.
Right now, I'm leaning toward Rubio. I want to like Walker because of how he told the unions to go pound sand, but he looked rough in the debate.
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I think that there are four or five leaders that were on that stage besides The Donald, though he's proven he can make money, is a bully! How many families has he destroyed in his past?
Cruz is a damn smart fella.
Rubio is young and well spoken.
Walker is a proven, tested Governor.
Fiorina is a very, very smart person..and not a Washington pol.
Jindhal, I've always appreciated his views and values, also a proven Governor..
It's a long process this time. For all the comedy that is forthcoming, imagine the fun when "Jokin' Joe" gets into the race, and he will!
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Rubio is an amnesty supporting POS.
Fiorina supports climate change.
The beauty of voting to collapse the system, which can not stand 16 years of Dem stupidity is that we won't have to gas the liberals, ghetto monkeys, illegals, and Muslims.
The people they put into power will do it and let us laugh and point, just like every other dictator since Napoleon.
Personally, I'm bringing popcorn.
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I think that there are four or five leaders that were on that stage besides The Donald, though he's proven he can make money, is a bully! How many families has he destroyed in his past?
Cruz is a damn smart fella.
Rubio is young and well spoken.
Walker is a proven, tested Governor.
Fiorina is a very, very smart person..and not a Washington pol.
Jindhal, I've always appreciated his views and values, also a proven Governor.
His only platform so far is "Build a wall" and "Make deals".
And not a single one of them will close the border down. If all Trump accomplished in 4 years was to... "Build a wall". He will have done something none of his predecessors were able to accomplish over how many decades? All the rest of them are nothing but more of what we've already had. The room is already full of that smell.
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No one will shut the border down, Bill. You may as well try yourself, you certainly have plenty of firepower.
Is there any discourse that can be offered that you and Bogan don't shit all over?
Have either of you noticed that basically the participation on this forum is limited to about a dozen people lately? People must think that unless they toe the "DRTV" line that they're no longer welcome to speak. Personally, I play here less and less often because what lured me here 7-8 years ago is no longer part of the discussion.
Maybe it's time to go...I can still find time to get laid on occasion!
And, the PATRIOTS STILL SUCK BALLS, Tom! :) Superbowl champs or not...
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Is there any discourse that can be offered that you and Bogan don't shit all over?
Sure. But I don't call, "What's being offered", as being discourse. You're old enough to have seen the same thing I have over the last 4+ decades. So why would you want to keep doing the same thing, (voting for professional politicians), and expecting to get a different result? As I recall, that's called the definition of insanity.
Remember, both Cruz and Rubio support Hispanics, and Bush is married to one.
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I haven't said I'm voting for any of them! I just said who I won't vote for.
Again, my vote don't mean spit! Neither will Tom's!
NH will probably fall to the left as it has most recently.
I'm not against Hispanics! I'm against ALL illegals, regardless of where they came from..
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The fact is, regardless of who you vote for, people are fed up with politicians. Who got the biggest bump, and the most attention from the debates? Trump, Fiorina, and Carson. All 3 are NOT politicians. 2 CEO's and a retired surgeon. People want an political outsider. At this point Trump is offering the best tasting flavors.
The stupidity with the dumb ass Republicans, is they should be embracing these people. Instead they are treating them like outsiders, picking them apart with petty bull$h!t. And the result is they, (the Republican establishment), are the ones looking petty. Not Trump and the rest. They're all the same people they've always been. The dumb ass Republicans can't handle that or them. They're biting the hand that is feeding them. Take away Trump, Fiorina, and Carson's points, and you've got jack $h!t left.
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Take away Trump, Fiorina, and Carson's points, and you've got jack $h!t left.
Now you're making sense and that sense is that whomever is the next president doesn't really matter!
Remember, the entire house and 1/3 of the senate are up for grabs... the president doesn't matter anymore unless it's a lefty and then the Supreme Court is toast..
Then you're fucked... Tom will then get his wish to start killing people..
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Now you're making sense and that sense is that whomever is the next president doesn't really matter!
Remember, the entire house and 1/3 of the senate are up for grabs... the president doesn't matter anymore unless it's a lefty and then the Supreme Court is toast..
Then you're fucked... Tom will then get his wish to start killing people..
Hasn't it struck you that it doesn't matter about the Houses anymore either? And THAT is what has people so damn pissed off, and in Trump's corner? When Obama took over, he had both the House and the Senate. Now the Republicans do. What's changed? What will change? Nothing. As for the Supreme Court, they've ruled for the communists in the last 2 big decisions. Broken is broke.
The border still leaks like a screen door on a submarine. The health care system is still a disastrous joke. The dumb ass Republicans don't have a clue how to fix it because they can't. You'll never have tort reform which would fix it, because both Houses are packed full of scum sucking lawyers.
Trump may or may not have all the solutions. That remains to be seen. But we KNOW for a fact another politician, be it a communist, or a Republican good ol' boy, is only going to make things even worse. If that's even possible. And people have been killed over a lot less.
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Good point...
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Hey Tim, your the one reading and posting in a political thread.
If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
The fact that you don't know where candidates stand on various issues isn't my fault.
Your attitude is a perfect example of why the countries so screwed up.
Your to lazy to inform yourself so I'm an asshole.
:well, I'm racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, Francophobic, claustrophobic, and rude. Bite me.
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Have either of you noticed that basically the participation on this forum is limited to about a dozen people lately? People must think that unless they toe the "DRTV" line that they're no longer welcome to speak. Personally, I play here less and less often because what lured me here 7-8 years ago is no longer part of the discussion.
All forums go through this. People come and go. They get bored and move on. It's not the forum has changed, or the people in it. I think Internet forums in general are seeing a downturn. Most people don't have the time, or else something happens in their lives that require more attention.
Also, people who used to participate in many forums of the same type and topic, have limited it to a few. You can put me into that category. What I love about this place is the way M.B. limits the moderation to little, if any. So many forums are drunk with moderation, people get fed up and leave, or else get banned. Because they are so afraid they'll be reprimanded like children. Nothing turns off someone faster than that. Both Glock Talk and ARFCOM were, and still are famous for this. Say whatever is on your mind Tim. You just can't expect everyone to love you for it. But whatever it may be, you won't get "banned" for it here, like you will at so many other sites.
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As for the border, build the wall that has been approved for what; 10 years now? Start enforcing the law and deporting illegals. Get rid of the B.S. "anchor baby" crap. After you build the wall, start to build military bases all along our side of it. And start using our military to protect the homeland. Build it up like the DMZ between N and S. Korea. Inform Mexico that ANYONE attempting to cross outside of a designated crossing will be shot on sight. No questions asked. And their corpse left to rot as a warning to the next fool.
Establish a strategy for the military to WIN this global war on terror. (My plan would be to seek out and kill anyone with ties to ANY terrorist organization). Then get the hell out of the way and let the military handle it. They know what they are doing. If this includes regimes like Iran, so be it. It should have been made clear from the beginning that this was a WORLD WAR. Guess what? The map may be different when we are done.
As for our domestic problems, GET THE FEDS HANDS OUT OF EVERYTHING. Shut down the EPA, ATF, IRS. Kick the U.N. out of the U.S. and stop funding them. Stop foreign aid and use that money to pay down the debt. Stop regulating the economy to death. Stop all subsidies. No more corporate welfare, and no more progressive tax rates. Everyone pays the same rate. And if the government can't make it on that, then downsize. Begin to scale back welfare. Return charity to the churches.
I could go on. But you get the gist. Domestic Policy: Screw You, do it self!
Foreign Policy: Screw all of you do it self, and if you are involved in the killing of Americans, prepare to die, and rot in hell.
I am JC5123 and I'm running for benevolent dictator.
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The professional politicians and the machine behind them appear to have absolutely no idea how much the public disdains them. Either that or they think it will blow over or otherwise go away and not be a negative factor. All of the years of Congressional approvals being rated in the gutter and they do not think it is "them" but the other guy.
I listened to one of George W's guys on the TV the other night and he was oblivious to the new way of the world of politics that has emerged creating the Trump dynamic. He went on the offensive about Trump saying blah, blah, blah...and finally centered around policy statements and how important they are. Important? Really.
The issuance of meaningless policy statements from professional politicians is the dividing line between being fit for an office and being just another loser rabble rouser?
What few politicians "stick with" their policy statements.....and since this guy was a political industry insider he really thinks that is important whereas someone like myself is thinking about how pathetic and silly his "...important policy statement..." attack was. Policy...???? Really???? That's important when everyone on the outside knows the politicians lie like a pimp caught with a whore and a bag of dope?
Obviously the Republican political insiders do not know the ire and anger they have generated by going back on their conservative "policy" promises at every opportunity. And libs feel the same way about their guys.
With friends like Boehner, McConnell, Graham, etc. who needs enemies? Political parties should consider why nations believe enemy soldiers are to be treated humanely whereas the penalty for a traitor is generally death. People disdain enormously their own, the one's they put their trust on, turning on them and rending their trust.
Ken
PS Experience is government is another HA HA HA in my book. The best president we've had in the last 50 years was an actor. For inspiration and a contrast showing how far we have fallen click on the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt8y18YFH70 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt8y18YFH70)
Let's just give up says our politicians why not...another link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpH5L8zCtSk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpH5L8zCtSk)
Our surrender....it is voluntary. Must we roll over and surrender to obtain the peace of liberal approval? We owe those who sacrificed more than that.
Who is our enemy?
Watch those links above guys.....
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The big loser in last weeks debate was FOX. The fallout from this still hasn't settled. This was the biggest thing Trump needed, and it was the last thing Fox did. They still refuse to accept Trump as a viable candidate. The stupidity and stubbornness they are all displaying is unbelievable. That whole debate was a set up to hit Trump, and make the other machine politicians look better and more viable.
The whole thing backfired to the point Megan Kelly, Fox's shining star, has been getting death threats, and was put on sabbatical. "Vacation" my ass. Fox News chief Roger Ailes begged and pleaded with Trump, who confessed to Sean Hannity in a weekend phone call, "He would never do Fox again", to come to a truce. Trump finally agreed, but only after Fox had been decimated. I don't thing the damage is over yet from all of this.
Fiorina made a huge mistake in siding with Kelly over Trump. That WILL come back to haunt her. And they STILL haven't learned their lessons. These political reporters are looking more and more stupid each and every time they speak. Trump has the people behind him. The whole debate disaster Fox engineered backfired. And Trump has come out of it as white as new fallen snow. With an even bigger following. The only way they can possibly stop him is to kill him. And that scares me. The Republican machine has never been put in this kind of position by anything or anyone. Ross Perot was a fart in a wind storm compared to this guy.
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Have not verified if all the quotes of Trump are true, but Ann Barnhardt seems to think so.
http://www.barnhardt.biz/
1) “I probably identify more as Democrat.”
2) “I’ve been around for a long time. And it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans.”
3) “Nancy — you’re the best. Congrats. [signature]”
—Handwritten note to Speaker Nancy Pelosi
4) “Bush is probably the worst president in the history of the United States.”
5) “I’m totally pro-choice.”
6) “I want to see the abortion issue removed from politics. I believe it is a personal decision that should be left to the women and their doctors.”
7) “I’m very liberal when it comes to health care. I believe in universal health care.”
8) “The Canadian plan also helps Canadians live longer and healthier than Americans… We need, as a nation, to reexamine the single-payer plan.”
9) “By imposing a one-time 14.25 percent net-worth tax on the richest individuals and trusts, we can put America on sound financial footing for the next century.”
10) “I think he [Obama] has a chance to go down as a great president.”
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Yeah, I'm not a Trumpster but I do prefer him over Jeb, Kasich, Christie and Rubio. And he's my preference over Sanders and Clinton too. I remember his Dem ways....but the best president we have had in the last 50 years was a reformed Democrat...maybe he's in the process I dunno...he's not my first choice but he is my clear preference over the names above.
Again, this mess needs to be fixed from the bottom up, not the top down. Be careful who you vote for in local and state elections. Fixing the bottom will fix the top....if it can be done.
Check out those links I posted a couple of posts back.....
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I remember his Dem ways....but the best president we have had in the last 50 years was a reformed Democrat.
Bingo.
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Yeah...I do understand much of that can change....
But my "conspiracy" radar twinged when I saw his friendly interaction with the Clintons.
It reminded me that the last two times a outspoken businessman ran for president as an independent was when a Clinton was running for the office also (and that is a diminishing possibility in this election).
Not coming to any conclusions...just noting some circumstances. Not that it makes any difference at all what the motives are should Trump run as a 3rd part candidate, the result will be the same.
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I understand people questioning Trump's political past. Every candidate has one. But he admits to the fact he did what he did in order to achieve the results in business he needed to achieve. He doesn't hide his ulterior motives, and right away get defensive about them, like so many professional politicians do. It's not like he supported some type of uber left wing ideology. At the risk of sounding like Michael Corleone, it was strictly business.
Trump worked and massaged politicians on both sides of the isle, wherever and whenever needed to get things done. To me, that is a qualification of a good President. Regan did that many times, and went down in history as one of the greatest Presidents in our lifetime, perhaps of all time. Trump realizes like so many other politicians don't, it's going to take difficult decisions to straighten out the financial mess this country is in. That requires someone who not only has the ability to wheel and deal. But also plead their case convincingly before others who may not agree with him. Trump can.
If a hard core conservative like Rand Paul or Cruz gets in, the other side, (hard core left), will simply shut them down cold. Much the way the Republicans have shut down Obama. Nothing will be achieved. Normally that could be a good thing. The problem now is that too many things need fixing. Trump knows how to leverage in order to get results. Will he do what he say's he will? That is to be determined. But right now I think most people, including myself, are willing to give him a shot at it. What do we have to lose at this point?
The rest of the field is going to give us what we've had for the last 3+ decades. Out of control debt, coupled with out of control wasteful spending on people and programs who don't deserve any of it. We are nearing the end of the road financially. Trump can turn it around. Albeit a difficult task, if not damn near impossible. But the way I'm looking at it, it's the last shot we'll have before this nation self destructs. If Trump doesn't make it, I doubt he'll come back again. Especially if he continues to spend his own money at the current rate he is. No one could be expected to shell out hundreds of millions of their own money, for a job that pays $400K a year. Regardless of the gold bricks he could pave his own road with, if he got in.
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Micheal Corleone makes a hell of a lot more sense than the people condemning him.
We've had example after example of the fact that the "nice" candidates are worthless losers.
How long will it take before you learn that politics is no place for that kind of people.
Just like with lawyers, you don't want one who's a nice guy, you want one who can win.
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Micheal Corleone makes a hell of a lot more sense than the people condemning him.
We've had example after example of the fact that the "nice" candidates are worthless losers.
As far as I'm concerned, every single candidate, other than Trump is a guaranteed worthless loser.
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If Trump goes 3rd party he should wake up with his campaign managers head on his bed since it will be an intentional effort to throw the otherwise unwinnable election to the Democrats enemies of civilization.
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If Trump goes 3rd party he should wake up with his campaign managers head on his bed since it will be an intentional effort to throw the otherwise unwinnable election to the Democrats enemies of civilization.
True. But if we're smart enough to know that, so does he. Which is why I'm betting he doesn't. He's just using that to rattle cages at this point. The guy's got a double digit lead that just keeps getting larger. He's got zero to worry about at this point.
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Biggest thing that worries me about Trump is that the only track record he has is for self promotion.
Never forget that his original claim to fame was being the first one to make the banks admit he was "to big to fail".
After so many disappointments I'm worried that Trump is all talk and no substance.
There is no track record as with Cruz, Walker, or even Bernie Sanders or Hillary.
All we are going by is what he says just like the current crop of gutless bastards in DC.
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<snip>
If a hard core conservative like Rand Paul or Cruz gets in, the other side, (hard core left), will simply shut them down cold. Much the way the Republicans have shut down Obama. Nothing will be achieved. Normally that could be a good thing.
<snip>
Shut down? Really. My health insurance and my pocketbook sure doesn't feel like the Republican's shut down anything. Like those invaders from the south...maybe you were thinking about stopping the rabble at the border?
OK...not trying to be ugly here. It's just you usually catch yourself before typing something like that....
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Shut down? Really. My health insurance and my pocketbook sure doesn't feel like the Republican's shut down anything. Like those invaders from the south...maybe you were thinking about stopping the rabble at the border?
My point is regardless if you elect a Republican or a Democrat, unless they have the ability to work with the other side, nothing will get accomplished. Obama won't work with anyone, and neither will the Republican establishment. We've seen that proven. So based on that, why would you think ANY candidate from either of the establishment parties would achieve any different results?
And as far as health care. Do you really think if Obama Care wasn't passed, it would be any cheaper or more available?
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It is really unlikely to matter who wins the election since we are already in the same economic situation as Greece. We are up to our ass in unsustainable debt aimed at pacifying a culture of parasites who when told that we must cut their benefits to preserve the nation will riot just like in Greece and France over the past few years, instead the "liberals" will try to give more bribes to parasites and illegal aliens.
No matter who wins the election they will be crushed by the financial collapse that is already beginning with the recent default of Porto Rico.
It's exactly the same thing that happened to Hoover, who was in office when previous liberal policies caused the depression, and GW Bush when the idiotic policies of the Clinton administration caused the housing market to collapse.
There's nothing any one can do now except prepare to survive the turmoil .
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As much as I hate to admit it Tom, you're probably right.
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You need to start saying "you're probably not wrong"
In any case, I have to agree....
Short of a "radical" change in how "politics as usual" is done, that is where we are heading.
Worry I have is that I'm sure Putin or Jinping would be very willing to help quell any turmoil in the United States
Perhaps that would be a good thing.....if it unites the country against a common foe.....but I think too many would welcome that change in type of government.
Gonna come down to which side the military comes down on early in the game.
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Solus, you haven't been paying attention.
Falling oil prices have hurt Russia's economy which was never that stable to begin with, besides, Vladamir has his own problems much closer to home. As for China, much the same thing, only worse . They have devalued the Yaun twice in the last few months and are facing famines and open uprisings through out the country on top of the unrest in Hong Kong that the media reports. No one will interfere with us because when we go all go.
We're not talking about another depression.
We're talking about a new dark ages.
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That cheers me up.
Now I understand why you intend to do what you can to bring on the collapse.
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If there is any silver lining in this horrifically dark cloud, it's the fact misery loves company. If we go down, both China and Russia will suffer worse. Most all of the other countries world wide, especially Europe, will all tumble like dominoes. About the only countries that won't know what's going on will be in Africa. They're already at zero and starving.
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<snip>
And as far as health care. Do you really think if Obama Care wasn't passed, it would be any cheaper or more available?
Absolutely on price. Available maybe not but I did not see people dying in the street laws down south where required people get care without insurance so I was paying for them before but without the insurance profits and burgeoning government administrative costs and requirements. Before Obamacare passed our corporate rate was $1,152/month (2013) including employee portion. Care was the best then...it's gone down since. Law got passed along with all of the crap in it next year jumped to $1,654/month. It's now $1950+/- with a $640/month employee contribution. You tell me if it went up....
Obamacare was welfare for insurance companies and drug companies to get them to love the communist/socialist way.....useful idiots in a corporate sense. You did know that...didn't you?
What the insurance provides as a benefit is drastically down....i.e. my costs are up, up, up. I could have opted for a $350/month lesser plan (the $1,950 company contribution did not change) but with the cancer my wife had I opted for the better plan which paid out the higher premium. If there had been no Obamacare and regular insurance increases the total monthly total premium would have been below $1,500 and with better coverage.
So yes, the cost went up the coverage went down. End of story....and not just my little company across the board. So now, when I hire someone (remember that economy thing) their salary and benefits come into play. A new employee needs to generate over $25,000 a year in profit just to cover his health, dental and life insurance costs. Gee, what happened to the good jobs in the US?
Hey, I want my employees and fellow employees to live well and have a great retirement on a good 401k plan. Money for their family for a nice home, cars, education whatever they want for their lifestyle. But doubling insurance to get less benefit helped no one who was working (have you ever wondered what happened to the recovery that wasn't). And no, unless someone is a communist why should anyone believe they are entitled to someone else's hard earned paycheck to get free care for just because they breath....the states should decide how to handle that if at all.
Don't pay attention to that guy behind the curtain....i.e., don't ask where coverage stops on covering cancer, a heart attack, organ transplant, stroke, etc....focus your eyes on getting those band aids from the doctor how much that saves compared to ER....whoo boy did the masses go for that and take it in the backside.
Hey, you get free condom's now....HOORAY....what a win for the little guy. And that wart you need off, hey hardly any money at all now paid for by my employees...gee Mom's got cancer and the coverage doesn't stops at $50k or doesn't cover all of the treatment...what are we gonna do? Go celebrate with one of your free condoms, of course.
So... thank you RINO's for stuffing your pockets with insurance and drug company money while you destroy our country. And people wonder why the guys with increasing support in the presidential Republican race are counter-establishment candidates.
Did you really not know that insurance costs were through the roof? Talk about unsustainable debt.
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Absolutely on price. Available maybe not but I did not see people dying in the street laws down south where required people get care without insurance so I was paying for them before but without the insurance profits and burgeoning government administrative costs and requirements. Before Obamacare passed our corporate rate was $1,152/month (2013) including employee portion. Care was the best then...it's gone down since. Law got passed along with all of the crap in it next year jumped to $1,654/month. It's now $1950+/- with a $640/month employee contribution. You tell me if it went up....
Did you really not know that insurance costs were through the roof? Talk about unsustainable debt.
It would have gone up anyway. Obama Care just gave everyone something to blame it on. I am 62 and my wife just turned 60. I'm currently paying over $14,000.00 a year for both her and I. So I'm well aware of the cost. And I was just informed by my present carrier, (Assurant Health), that my coverage will end on 12/31/15. They are getting out of the health care business all together...... The reason? Obama Care. So after the 1st of the year, I'm sure I'll be paying even more, assuming I can even get it at any price.
All of that means nothing because as I said, it would have gone up anyway. The health care system in this country is going 100 MPH down a dead end road. With or without Obama Care. 2 reasons. Lack of being able to shop across state lines, and tort reform. Until you have both sales competition, and law suit protection for doctors and hospitals, you are going to have high, unaffordable health care cost, regardless of who runs it. That will NEVER change. You don't even hear politicians discussing it. Trump has only mentioned opening up the market across state lines once. He has never mentioned tort reform. I doubt he would get either passed because both Houses are filled with both lobbyists for the health care industry, and both are packed full of lawyers. They will pass nothing that would hurt their brothers in arms.
Until you stop all of these law suits against doctors and hospitals, cost will be out of control until, much like our economy, you have total collapse of the industry. And that is coming. The one thing Obama Care has done is allow people with pre existing conditions to be insured without penalty. And that is a 2 edged sword. It raises the cost even higher across the board, but it allows the people who need the coverage the most, to be able to get it. Otherwise the insurance companies will only insure the healthiest people. Too many are not. So they are forced to go without it. When they get sick everyone else must pay for their treatment. This strains a weakened, failing system even further.
There is no solution to this unless they employ tort reform and interstate shopping. And as I mentioned, that will NEVER happen. Instead they'll go to a full single payer plan, i.e. Socialized Medicine. Which is what they, (both Republicans and Democrats), wanted from the get go. The Dems were just more vocal about it, because it fit within their party narrative. This was all planned long before Obama Care was passed. All Obama Care is going to do is accelerate the whole process. No one in their right mind ever thought Obama Care would work, any more than a total gun ban would. So they designed it as a "first step". And where have we heard that before? Obama Care, "kicks the can down the road". But the guy kicking it is looking well beyond where that can lands.
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What Rastus and Bill are both missing is the effect on employment. With the rise of Obamacare hiring slowed, Full time hiring nearly died.
The govt tell you unemployment is 5.5%.
Bullshit.
If that were the case "work force participation", the percentage of able bodied workers in the work force, would be 94.5%.
It isn't. It's around 60%.
...
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/the-warren-buffett-economy-why-its-days-are-numbered-part-4/
At the present time, there are 210 million adult Americans between the ages of 16 and 68—to take a plausible measure of the potential work force. That amounts to 420 billion potential labor hours, if we accept the convention that all adults are at least theoretically capable of holding a full-time job (2,000 hours/year) and pulling their share of society’s need for production and work effort.
By contrast, during 2014 only 240 billion hours were actually supplied to the US economy, according to the BLS estimates. Technically, therefore, there were 180 billion unemployed labor hours, meaning that the real unemployment rate was 42.9%, not 5.5%!
........................................................more at link....................................
To put that 42.9% in focus, at the height of the great depression
" Unemployment in the U.S. rose to 25%, and in some countries rose as high as 33%.[5]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
Even under the lethargic mismanagement of that peanut pulling POS carter the unemployment rate was only around 25%.
Wait and see where that goes when minimum wage is hiked to $15/hour.
What we are watching is the death throws of a once great nation that has degenerated to a bunch of sniveling offended asexual's who are caught in a monkey trap, they are to stupid, lazy, and greedy to let go of the "free shit" in order to pull their hand out of the trap.
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A lot of companies aren't hiring because Obama has the corporate tax rate too high, (35%, the highest in the world). So instead of investing in the corporations with new jobs and equipment, they're parking billions of dollars offshore to avoid the tax rate. If Republicans get in and lower the tax rate, all that cash will start busting loose, and there will be more jobs than there are talented people to fill them..... Which is already a problem. I know for a fact it was where I worked, and still is.
As far as employer paid health care insurance, it is slowly disappearing in favor of worthless, cheap $h!t, "Health Savings Accounts". All of which will disappear after 5 minutes in the Emergency Room. Again, all part of the plan to adopt a single payer plan. Remember, BOTH Republicans AND Democrats want this. Politicians will never reject a power grab. Especially when it controls something so vital as health care, along with putting over 1/5th of the nations economy in direct government control.
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What Rastus and Bill are both missing is the effect on employment. .<snip>
That's what I meant in the post, could have been a little clearer I guess...
"<snip>
So now, when I hire someone (remember that economy thing) their salary and benefits come into play. A new employee needs to generate over $25,000 a year in profit just to cover his health, dental and life insurance costs. Gee, what happened to the good jobs in the US?
<snip>
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There will still be jobs...... Just without good, or any health care.
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Bill, you don't get it.
Yeah, there will be jobs, for barter because the money is not worth shit.
No money for fuel means nothing moves.
When the Vandals cut the water supply to Rome, which is ON a river, the population dropped from millions to thousands. What do you think will happen to Phoenix, or Dallas ?
Oh, that all runs on electricity, what do you think will be the fist service to collapse ?
You are f#cked beyond imagining.
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Bill, you don't get it.
Yeah, there will be jobs, for barter because the money is not worth shit.
I'm talking about now. Some companies have reduced hiring, but NOT because of health insurance costs. They are simply reducing those costs to the bottom line, by either eliminating health plans in favor of useless, but much cheaper, "health savings accounts", or they are substantially increasing employee deductions in order to maintain even less coverage. Or else all of the above. Health care is pricing itself out of the employee benefits package nationwide.
Today, you can still find a job if you have a trade or skill that is in demand. Many still are. College "graduates" are a dime a dozen. Too many for too few openings. People TODAY are either receiving fewer health benefits from their jobs, or they are losing them all together. This was coming with or without Obama Care. It will continue to get worse.
Now, I agree with you that down the road, (when is anyone's guess), we'll have a financial collapse. The only way out would be instituting a massive cut in government, along with government programs and spending, the like of which people have never seen.
That won't happen because we have too many have nots who don't give a $h!t. They will vote to keep the freebies coming until we all crash and burn. They've got nothing to lose. The only bet you have now is when will that point be? 5 years down the road? 10?, or 20+? No one really knows. This country today is like a family with too much credit card debt, that refuses to stop spending money they don't have on crap they don't need. Sooner or later they'll be forced to because there will be nothing left for even the most basic of items. When that happens, it's going to get very ugly.
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I'm talking about now. Some companies have reduced hiring, but NOT because of health insurance costs.
<snip>
Did someone not read my previous posts? I hire...I fire. Health insurance costs are up $10,000+ a year from what we paid 2 years ago.
Yes, I have stopped hiring directly because of health insurance costs. 80% of the businesses I know have reduced or stopped hiring because of the jump in health insurance costs because of Obamacare. That's construction, oil business, lawn service, etc.
And the 100% of the businesses I know, including the one I work for, have reduced new employee pay and employee raises as a consequence of Obamacare.
I thought I was clear in my post...I guess not.
This health insurance thing has been a progressive communist/socialist initiative for a long time. The Dems in congress worked to phase out all kinds of personal income tax deductions in the 80's. Of course, it is The Government's money, right?
Then in the 90's we had the Clinton Communist medical plan. It was more transparently a bandaid plan...I read the dang thing and neither of my son's asthma treatments would have been covered long term....I know what everyone heard...I read the book and stand behind my statement.
So the RINO's through Bush saddled us with the prescription drugs and now we have Obamacare dragging down the entire US economy.
The big thing that has prevented the US economy from collapsing under Obama (and it's not over yet) is the technology we employ on what were formerly known as "source rocks" in the oil industry where we are now importing 5 million barrels a day less oil than if we had not developed the technology. And, do you not think we'd be paying $100+/bbl with 5 million less barrels on the world market so the sorry ass recovery that has 23 % unemployment using historical standards (22% for the Depression) is propped up by 500 million dollars a day staying in the US...about 185 billion a year staying inside our borders?
And how will there be jobs without Obamacare? Someone enlighten me how I can escape the law? Remember the IRS personnel increase...try as a business owner not supplying Obamacare and see where that gets you...like not paying you taxes. The IRS carries guns now.
I do not understand your statement about jobs without health care but I do stand by your statement stating jobs without good healthcare because that is now and it is called Obamacare supplied by government decree and it is terrible in comparison to what people could by at 1/2 price 2 years ago.
How many insurance company meetings have you had in the last 3 years like I have to discuss what insurance plans are available and what the cost is? You have 3 to 5 plans you can ( 4 & 5 are generally just adders for eye care and dental) buy from an insurance company and that's it...you don't get to pick and choose your coverage the insurance company offerings are fixed by the insurance company and that is that. I have been in several meetings with various insurance provides to determine what we could afford to offer at a higher price with less benefit and you choose what is offered you don't dictate what is covered.
The psychologists want to get paid so they have Congress pass laws or regulators write regulations that require (this was in the 90's) that you must supply whacko care. Then it was assistance for employees who's feelings are topsy tervy when they are away from home. Together that jumped the price about $150 a month prior to 2000.
I can go on and on. There have been a number of Congressional or government bureaucrat supported initiatives that have caused health care costs to go up because of mandates. All of which have helped to lead us to where we are today. I mean dang, I go to great trouble to screen out druggies and alcoholics...but the insurance we've bought for the last 20 years has, by US Government decree, required us to provide some assistance for people who wash out...and I can't fire them if they crawl in to HR and fess up before I find out.
Anyone who thinks the health insurance you buy now is better than what you could buy 3 years ago at 1/2 the price is drinking Communist Kool-Aide. Ditto if you think the government has improved things the last 30 years.
PS I forgot, Bill Clinton by presidential order put a ceiling on the number of medical school students there could be in the 90's if a school accepted federal crack...errr, $$$$$. It may have been adjusted since then, but think about who wanted that and why.
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Follow what Rastus is saying. It is the new American employment economy.
When I was fresh out of vo-tech and both gaining experience and taking management classes for the future, I was taught that for easy math consider that an employee will cost a business twice their actual dollar pay - Employer match on SS, liability and workman's comp insurance, vacation and sick leave, etc. Today, even if minimum wage rises to $15.00 hour, many employers will face doubling that wage by just covering mandated insurance. I see a time in our near future, or even today, that actual cost of an employee will be three or more times the actual stated hourly rate or salary.
Get ready for the politicians who buy their seats with campaign promises of wealth for all trying to deal with their unintended consequences, and more and more jobs being classified as contract labor. Poultry farmers in our area started doing this decades ago. Rather than deal with hiring twenty people to load chickens or turkeys all night (tens of thousands of birds in a 12 to 18 hour period) they contract with a person for a set number of dollars to complete the job, and they deal with the casual labor to fill the contract. Just down the road from us I watch it with an organic farmer who contracts with a person for a set dollar amount per acre to clean his organic/chemical fields of corn and soybeans. This person collects the money and provides casual labor to crawl through the field pulling weeds.
You may think contract labor will never infiltrate our daily lives, but consider compensation for sales people, many service specialists, hairdressers and manicurists, and carpenters.