The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on May 06, 2009, 01:24:53 AM
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I was reading a thread on another site, where a guy was strongly against felons having guns and back ground checks...
Now I'm pretty sure that every one here agrees that violent felons should not be able to own guns.( I know a few people might not...)
We also know that felons can get guns illegally.
Anyways, Other then a back ground check, how could you stop a felon from walking into a gun store and buying a gun?
Logicly, the only way you could keep a segment of the population from owning a gun( legally) is to have a back ground check.
Note you could replace gun with anything else...
PS , yes I am fully aware that back ground checks are a new thing...
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I agree. The greatest threat to our gun rights is the criminal. Everytime someone uses one in a crime, its another reason to punish the rest of us. If criminals couldn't get guns, I wouldn't carry one. Th difference between me and the antis is that I am smart enough to realize that criminals are, you know, criminals, and unlikely to obey gun control laws. Even though the 443 is a joke (how many people answer, yes I am a fugitve), the quicky phone call to check for warrants and convictions isn't. It rarely takes more than a few minutes and seems harmless and a detterent to a criminal getting a gun directly from a licensed dealer. As long as they don't keep the records, who cares. Although, realitically, if the feds wanted to know who had guns all they'd need to do is suppeana a dealers "bound book" regardless of the background check.
FQ13
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I agree. The greatest threat to our gun rights is the criminal. Everytime someone uses one in a crime, its another reason to punish the rest of us. If criminals couldn't get guns, I wouldn't carry one. Th difference between me and the antis is that I am smart enough to realize that criminals are, you know, criminals, and unlikely to obey gun control laws. Even though the 443 is a joke (how many people answer, yes I am a fugitve), the quicky phone call to check for warrants and convictions isn't. It rarely takes more than a few minutes and seems harmless and a detterent to a criminal getting a gun directly from a licensed dealer. As long as they don't keep the records, who cares. Although, realitically, if the feds wanted to know who had guns all they'd need to do is suppeana a dealers "bound book" regardless of the background check.
FQ13
working for a FFL, never had anyone say yes to that, but atleast once a month some one answered yes to the drug/ booze q. They would get so pissed when we would not sell them a gun. same with people that were drunk and high.
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To be honest, the questions on the forms are a joke. I can fill out one in less then a minute, accurate, truthful and complete; blindfolded, with fingers in my ears using my foot to write.
There is no reason for any self respecting (smart) criminal to answer truthfully to the questions. For me though, because I have a CHL, there is no phone call required for the purchase. If I have jumped through all the hoops required for that, I am good to go. Which is really how it should be. The local and federal law enforcement offices have more information on/about me then they do the average Joe Blow gang banger criminal.
IMHO, what it will take is more accurate and faster accessible criminal records for those running the background check. So instead of keeping track of what someone didn't do, they need to have accountings for what people have done. This should be a fairly easy task considering the age of technology and the speed at which information travels on the Internet.
No matter what is done with it, there will always be flaws in the system. For example, I went to renew my drivers license. I get to the front of the line and start talking with a lady who has literally known me my entire life. She looks at the computer and it shows I am an not a US citizen (AKA. illegal alien) Some one entering information forgot to check the correct box. To fix this, I had to go home, get my birth certificate and return to the TX DPS office. It was an inconvenience but overall not a huge problem to fix. So more accurate, but occasionally flawed back ground checks would be a decent compromise overall. Yes there will be law abiding people that run into incorrect information that will need to be fixed, but criminals will give up easily with obtaining a 'legal' firearm and just get one the way the rest of the underworld will. Buying it from a guy in an overcoat, standing on the sidewalk... That or they get flashed by a pervert. ;D
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To be honest, the questions on the forms are a joke. I can fill out one in less then a minute, accurate, truthful and complete; blindfolded, with fingers in my ears using my foot to write.
There is no reason for any self respecting (smart) criminal to answer truthfully to the questions. For me though, because I have a CHL, there is no phone call required for the purchase. If I have jumped through all the hoops required for that, I am good to go. Which is really how it should be. The local and federal law enforcement offices have more information on/about me then they do the average Joe Blow gang banger criminal.
IMHO, what it will take is more accurate and faster accessible criminal records for those running the background check. So instead of keeping track of what someone didn't do, they need to have accountings for what people have done. This should be a fairly easy task considering the age of technology and the speed at which information travels on the Internet.
No matter what is done with it, there will always be flaws in the system. For example, I went to renew my drivers license. I get to the front of the line and start talking with a lady who has literally known me my entire life. She looks at the computer and it shows I am an not a US citizen (AKA. illegal alien) Some one entering information forgot to check the correct box. To fix this, I had to go home, get my birth certificate and return to the TX DPS office. It was an inconvenience but overall not a huge problem to fix. So more accurate, but occasionally flawed back ground checks would be a decent compromise overall. Yes there will be law abiding people that run into incorrect information that will need to be fixed, but criminals will give up easily with obtaining a 'legal' firearm and just get one the way the rest of the underworld will. Buying it from a guy in an overcoat, standing on the sidewalk... That or they get flashed by a pervert. ;D
I'm not sure yu understand how the the NCIS check works. its just a list of people that can not own guns, if your on the list, you can't buy a gun.
I also disagree with CCW?CHL/ what ever you want to call it expemting you. for the simple reason that the back gorund check was done a long time ago. things happen.
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I also disagree with CCW?CHL/ what ever you want to call it expemting you. for the simple reason that the back gorund check was done a long time ago. things happen.
At least in my state, any violation that would render you unfit to purchase a firearm, also demands immediate forfeiture of your CCW. If you do not surrender it within a certain time period, the sheriff's dept. will pay you an unpleasant visit and confiscate said license. So, in the case of KY residents, I see no reason not to give those who've jumped through the hoops a little break. According to what you said about NCIS, my CCW is far better proof that I'm a law abiding citizen anyway.
Swoop
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I'm not sure yu understand how the the NCIS check works. its just a list of people that can not own guns, if your on the list, you can't buy a gun.
I also disagree with CCW?CHL/ what ever you want to call it expemting you. for the simple reason that the back gorund check was done a long time ago. things happen.
Again, I pretty much agree. You were a licensed driver last month, but then you got convicted of DUI two weeks ago. I do agree with SWOOP though that the CCW holder should be exempt from the absurd and archaic 5 day waiting period that Florida imposes on non-CCW holders. The background check is quick, free, and lets us say to those who use the examples of armed felons who abuse guns, "If only you enforced the laws already on the books......".
FQ13
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I think waiting periods are a joke... it should be no more then 15-30 mins for them to get a yes or a no.
I don't think buying a gun should be any diffrent for anyone. LEO, CCW, or john Q public. they should all be able to buy the exact same gun, for the exact same price and the process be exactly the same.
If you look at averages, LEOs are more likly to be convicted of a crime then the average person.( every one breaks the law, just as every one commits atleast 1 felony in thier life time.)
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If you do not surrender it within a certain time period, the sheriff's dept. will pay you an unpleasant visit and confiscate said license.
"Oh gee, sorry officer. Evidently I lost it. "
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Again, I pretty much agree. You were a licensed driver last month, but then you got convicted of DUI two weeks ago. I do agree with SWOOP though that the CCW holder should be exempt from the absurd and archaic 5 day waiting period that Florida imposes on non-CCW holders. The background check is quick, free, and lets us say to those who use the examples of armed felons who abuse guns, "If only you enforced the laws already on the books......".
FQ13
FL is only a 3 day wait. And I have my CWP
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The biggest problem with all of this is that it denies me the RKBA. It assumes everyone is guilty and they must prove their innocence. It puts up barriers to my rights. Something, that in other areas has been soundly renounced. I seemed to remember someone saying something along the lines of, a right delayed is a right denied
Let's apply it to Free Speech. Would you be in favor of Eric Holder deciding who has the "privilege" of starting an Internet forum? Would you only allow people who possess a "license" (call it a Concealed Comment Wordsmith license) the ability to buy a computer or have an e-mail account? Or how about having to wait 3 days for a select government department to determine whether your letter-to-the-editor or your comment to an editorial from being posted?
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Just about every right has some sort of delay with it. Want to march on washington? guess what you need a permit, pay a large fee and give them months notice before hand.
Want to form a chruch that is not a biz? guess what, more paper work, a back ground check and a even longer wait.
you name the right, there are restrictions on it. A background check does not stop you from owning a gun( assuming its legal for you to do so)
So let me ask how would you keep felons form legally buying guns?
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The biggest problem with all of this is that it denies me the RKBA. It assumes everyone is guilty and they must prove their innocence. It puts up barriers to my rights. Something, that in other areas has been soundly renounced. I seemed to remember someone saying something along the lines of, a right delayed is a right denied
Let's apply it to Free Speech. Would you be in favor of Eric Holder deciding who has the "privilege" of starting an Internet forum? Would you only allow people who possess a "license" (call it a Concealed Comment Wordsmith license) the ability to buy a computer or have an e-mail account? Or how about having to wait 3 days for a select government department to determine whether your letter-to-the-editor or your comment to an editorial from being posted?
You're missing the point Suave. When you commit a felony, you lose rights, like say your right to be free and not thrown in jail. You also lose your right to vote, along with your right to own a gun. I think this a good thing, at least as far as violent felonies are concerned (Financial and drug crimes, maybe give them back after a few years of good behavior). Felons had the right to a gun, demonstrated they couldn't be trusted with it, and its only self defense to take it away from them.
FQ13
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Again, I pretty much agree. You were a licensed driver last month, but then you got convicted of DUI two weeks ago. I do agree with SWOOP though that the CCW holder should be exempt from the absurd and archaic 5 day waiting period that Florida imposes on non-CCW holders. The background check is quick, free, and lets us say to those who use the examples of armed felons who abuse guns, "If only you enforced the laws already on the books......".
FQ13
WRONG! Florida has a 3 day waiting period and what Broward / Dade is doing is illegal.
790.0655 Purchase and delivery of handguns; mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.--
(1)(a) There shall be a mandatory 3-day waiting period, which shall be 3 days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and the delivery at retail of any handgun. "Purchase" means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer. "Handgun" means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. "Retailer" means and includes every person engaged in the business of making sales at retail or for distribution, or use, or consumption, or storage to be used or consumed in this state, as defined in s. 212.02(13).
(b) Records of handgun sales must be available for inspection by any law enforcement agency, as defined in s. 934.02, during normal business hours.
(2) The 3-day waiting period shall not apply in the following circumstances:
(a) When a handgun is being purchased by a holder of a concealed weapons permit as defined in s. 790.06.
(b) To a trade-in of another handgun.
(3) It is a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084:
(a) For any retailer, or any employee or agent of a retailer, to deliver a handgun before the expiration of the 3-day waiting period, subject to the exceptions provided in subsection (2).
(b) For a purchaser to obtain delivery of a handgun by fraud, false pretense, or false representation.
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WRONG! Florida has a 3 day waiting period and what Broward / Dade is doing is illegal.
790.0655 Purchase and delivery of handguns; mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.--
They're doing it in Palm Beach County too Haz. I didn't even realize it was against state law. This makes even more aggravating. Stupid is one thing, illegal is another. (Damn Yankees) >:(
FQ13 Who will now go sit in the corner next to M'lette, which, come to think of it, isn't such a bad punishment ;D
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They're doing it in Palm Beach County too Haz. I didn't even realize it was against state law. This makes even more aggravating. Stupid is one thing, illegal is another. (Damn Yankees) >:(
FQ13 Who will now go sit in the corner next to M'lette, which, come to think of it, isn't such a bad punishment ;D
FQ if you have a CCW then you are exempt from the 3 day rule. No 'ifs, and or buts'. It says "shall not apply", there is no wiggle room. Also in the beginning of the statute it says that the State occupies the whole of the field and that no other body is allowed to ake or change gun law.
So next time you buy, take a copy of the law with you and demand that you get the gun now! I had to do it here once in Pinellas county. Showed him the law and told him hand it over or be sued and charged with not following the gun regs. Told him that wouldn't look too good on his FFL report.
If we don't stand for our rights and the law, don't expect anyone else to help!
Here is a link to the law (and you should have received a copy with your CCW)
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/titl0790.htm
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Just about every right has some sort of delay with it. Want to march on washington? guess what you need a permit, pay a large fee and give them months notice before hand.
Want to form a chruch that is not a biz? guess what, more paper work, a back ground check and a even longer wait.
you name the right, there are restrictions on it. A background check does not stop you from owning a gun( assuming its legal for you to do so)
So let me ask how would you keep felons form legally buying guns?
I would not waste my time attempting the impossible. Felons were NOT prohibited from owning arms after their sentence was served until 1934 NFA went into effect. Just in case you haven't noticed it has no effect. Criminals get guns when ever they want.
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They're doing it in Palm Beach County too Haz. I didn't even realize it was against state law. This makes even more aggravating. Stupid is one thing, illegal is another. (Damn Yankees) >:(
FQ13 Who will now go sit in the corner next to M'lette, which, come to think of it, isn't such a bad punishment ;D
Don't Blame US, NH has NO wait.
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FQ if you have a CCW then you are exempt from the 3 day rule. No 'ifs, and or buts'. It says "shall not apply", there is no wiggle room. Also in the beginning of the statute it says that the State occupies the whole of the field and that no other body is allowed to ake or change gun law.
So next time you buy, take a copy of the law with you and demand that you get the gun now! I had to do it here once in Pinellas county. Showed him the law and told him hand it over or be sued and charged with not following the gun regs. Told him that wouldn't look too good on his FFL report.
If we don't stand for our rights and the law, don't expect anyone else to help!
Here is a link to the law (and you should have received a copy with your CCW)
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/titl0790.htm
I've got my permit Haz, its not a problem for me. It just bugs me that stupid laws like this (or as you point out, an infringement of the law) is still out there. Sorry Tom I know New Hampshire and Vt. are OK, but here we are talking about NY. and NJ and Mass., so I will say again, Damn Yankees. ;)
FQ13
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I would not waste my time attempting the impossible. Felons were NOT prohibited from owning arms after their sentence was served until 1934 NFA went into effect. Just in case you haven't noticed it has no effect. Criminals get guns when ever they want.
I agree that, "Criminals get guns when ever they want." They don't go through the NCIS process. You CAN"T keep guns out of the hands of a criminal because they will circumvent any process that tries to keep guns out of their hands. The current background check laws only impacts people like us. We are forced to jump through all the hoops while the criminal bypassed the entire process.
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I would not waste my time attempting the impossible. Felons were NOT prohibited from owning arms after their sentence was served until 1934 NFA went into effect. Just in case you haven't noticed it has no effect. Criminals get guns when ever they want.
did you read the 1st post?
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Yes I read the first post, I also read your incorrect post about all other rights being limited that we have gone over before and showed you to be wrong.
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Just about every right has some sort of delay with it. Want to march on washington? guess what you need a permit, pay a large fee and give them months notice before hand.
Want to form a chruch that is not a biz? guess what, more paper work, a back ground check and a even longer wait.
you name the right, there are restrictions on it. A background check does not stop you from owning a gun( assuming its legal for you to do so)
So let me ask how would you keep felons form legally buying guns?
Keep them in jail? Obliterate gangs with extreme prejudice once and for all?
FBI: Burgeoning gangs behind up to 80% of U.S. crime
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
Criminal gangs in the USA have swelled to an estimated 1 million members responsible for up to 80% of crimes in communities across the nation, according to a gang threat assessment compiled by federal officials.
The major findings in a report by the Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center, which has not been publicly released, conclude gangs are the "primary retail-level distributors of most illicit drugs" and several are "capable" of competing with major U.S.-based Mexican drug-trafficking organizations.
"A rising number of U.S.-based gangs are seemingly intent on developing working relationships" with U.S. and foreign drug-trafficking organizations and other criminal groups to "gain direct access to foreign sources of illicit drugs," the report concludes.
The gang population estimate is up 200,000 since 2005.
Bruce Ferrell, chairman of the Midwest Gang Investigators Association, whose group monitors gang activity in 10 states, says the number of gang members may be even higher than the report's estimate.
"We've seen an expansion for the last 10 years," says Ferrell, who has reviewed the report. "Each year, the numbers are moving forward."
'Growing threat' on the move
The report says about 900,000 gang members live "within local communities across the country," and about 147,000 are in U.S. prisons or jails.
"Most regions in the United States will experience increased gang membership … and increased gang-related criminal activity," the report concludes, citing a recent rise in gangs on the campuses of suburban and rural schools.
Among the report's other findings:
•Last year, 58% of state and local law enforcement agencies reported that criminal gangs were active in their jurisdictions, up from 45% in 2004.
•More gangs use the Internet, including encrypted e-mail, to recruit and to communicate with associates throughout the U.S. and other countries.
•Gangs, including outlaw motorcycle groups, "pose a growing threat" to law enforcement authorities along the U.S.-Canadian border. The U.S. groups are cooperating with Canadian gangs in various criminal enterprises, including drug smuggling.
Assistant FBI Director Kenneth Kaiser, the bureau's criminal division chief, says gangs have largely followed the migration paths of immigrant laborers.
He says the groups are moving to avoid the scrutiny of larger metropolitan police agencies in places such as Los Angeles. "These groups were hit hard in L.A." by law enforcement crackdowns, "but they are learning from it," Kaiser says.
MS-13 far-flung from L.A. incubator
One group that continues to spread despite law enforcement efforts is the violent Salvadoran gang known as MS-13.
Michael Sullivan, the departing director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, says the gang's dependence on shocking violence to advance extortion, prostitution and other criminal enterprises has frustrated attempts to infiltrate and disrupt the insular group's activities.
"MS-13's foothold in the U.S. is expanding," Sullivan says.
Kaiser says the street gang is in 42 states, up from 33 in 2005. "Enforcement efforts have been effective to a certain extent, but they (gang members) keep moving," he says.
MS-13 is the abbreviation for the gang also known as Mara Salvatrucha. The group gained national prominence in the 1980s in Los Angeles, where members were linked to incidents involving unusual brutality.
Since then, it has formed cells or "cliques" across the U.S., says Aaron Escorza, chief of the FBI's MS-13 National Gang Task Force.
The task force was launched in 2004 amid concerns about the gang's rapid spread. Gang members were targeted in broad investigations similar to those used to bust organized crime groups from Russia and Italy.
Among law enforcement efforts:
•Omaha: The last of 24 MS-13 members swept up on federal firearms charges and conspiracy to distribute methamphetamine were sentenced last year in the largest bust since the group emerged there in 2004.
The gang's strength dimmed as a result, but the nine-month probe did not eradicate the group, says Ferrell, who assisted in the investigation.
•Nashville: During the last two years, 14 MS-13 members pleaded guilty on charges ranging from murder to obstruction of justice.
Davidson County, Tenn., Sheriff Daron Hall, whose jurisdiction includes Nashville, says MS-13 started growing there about five years ago, corresponding with an influx of immigrant labor.
Last April, county officials began checking the immigration status of all arrestees. "We know we have removed about 100 gang members, including MS-13," to U.S. authorities for deportation, Hall says.
•Maryland: Earlier this month, federal authorities said they had convicted 42 MS-13 members since 2005. More than half were charged in a "racketeering conspiracy" in which members participated in robberies and beatings and arranged the murders of other gang members, according to Justice Department documents.
In one case, Maryland gang members allegedly discussed killing rivals with an MS-13 leader calling on a cellphone from a Salvadoran jail, the documents say.
Escorza says a "revolving door" on the border has kept the gang's numbers steady — about 10,000 in the U.S. — even as many illegal immigrant members are deported.
The FBI, which has two agents in El Salvador to help identify and track members in Central America and the United States, plans to dispatch four more agents to Guatemala and Honduras, Escorza says.
"They evolve and adapt," he says. "They know what law enforcement is doing. Word of mouth spreads quickly."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm)
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Keep them in jail? Obliterate gangs with extreme prejudice once and for all?
you and I both know that will not work.
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There is no waiting period in Indiana. Apparently that goes for some of the criminals too cause I just read where a handgun was stolen on the north end of town and a shotgun stolen on the southside. Hmmm, you think the perp knew the victim since it was the only thing stolen??? :) Not much super sloothing to go on there but it is sickening how people with CCW's are treated with disrespect and sometimes contempt. Funny how we went through the background checks that we paid for and were granted permission to carry a firearm legally.
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I kinda want to work backward on this, been thinking about it a long time.
1) When you graduate high school, provided your not a felon at that time, you are given an ID card that shows all of your rights, constitutionally, 1st, 2nd 4th, 10th, and all the other bill of rights. As you go through life and prosper or f''ck up, your card loses rights, or does not change. You must present this card, to vote, purchase a gun, etc... And if your dumb, maybe as you lose these rights, you get the big picture, as they get crossed off your card, and decide, " I don't want to lose any more ".
2) If you are a Felon, you get a flourescent tattoo, that those that need to know can shine a black light on, and it will show up, not visible to the naked eye, but visible under the black light, therefore you have lost rights, and cannot use just an ID to get through, an individual can use this technology, and cheap. Not just a dealer at a gunshow.
3) Of course I would prefer, that felons had tattoo's on their foreheads, and we all know who they are, but I also believe in a 2nd chance and regaining your rights, if you pay your debt. That is why I like the Flourescent tattoo.
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you and I both know that will not the government doesn't have the stones to do something that will work.
Fixed that for you.
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Fixed that for you.
Fixed indeed, however you missed the one solution that will work, and work quickly. End drug prohition. This will deny them revenue, an incentive to use violence to protect their stashes and said revenue, and basically reduce them to nothing more than bunch of loser kids with bad attitudes, as opposed to a multi-billion dollar business. And you're right, the govrnment doesn't have the stones to do it as it would be admitting that the policy we've been following since the Harrison Act passed in 1914 doesn't work. We can't let a little thing reality intrude on 100 years of wishful thinking.
FQ13
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There is no waiting period in Indiana. Apparently that goes for some of the criminals too cause I just read where a handgun was stolen on the north end of town and a shotgun stolen on the southside. Hmmm, you think the perp knew the victim since it was the only thing stolen??? :) Not much super sloothing to go on there but it is sickening how people with CCW's are treated with disrespect and sometimes contempt. Funny how we went through the background checks that we paid for and were granted permission to carry a firearm legally.
You want contempt?
I have been attending our County Sheriff's Citizen Academy, a free 13-week program for the citizen to see some of the inside of the Sheriff's daily life, including a tour of the jail inside the bars (only it's a fairly new jail, no bars). Last night was patrol and traffic stops. So what do I - the shy and retiring type - decide to do? I put the question we have debated here to the 5 officers in attendance. If you stop a CCW holder, do you want to know right away? I was appalled at the responses from the younger officers.
Basically, they said they would remove you from the car, cuff you, secure the weapon and then finish the stop. If you proved to be a good guy, then they would uncuff you and send you on their way. The sole rationalization was that they will be going home safe at the end of the day. They tried to justify it by saying you might be a criminal - to which I responded with the facts from here and elsewhere that basically the CCW holders are the good guys. They seemed surprised at the push-back. When I reinforced what the laws say, one of them - a field training officer no less - announced that there was not a jury who would find against him for cuffing a driver with a gun. Again, the officer was going home at the end of the day.
The older officers agreed - only mildly so IMHO - quoting officer safety.
So here we have officers sworn to uphold the law who feel it is acceptable to violate a citizen and violate the overriding law just so they can feel safe and because they can get away with it. Interesting that one of the civilians in the class backed them up.
I think I have an answer to my unasked question about the officers' willingness to follow illegal orders such as to confiscate firearms if the treaty bho is pushing is ratified.
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You want contempt?
I have been attending our County Sheriff's Citizen Academy, a free 13-week program for the citizen to see some of the inside of the Sheriff's daily life, including a tour of the jail inside the bars (only it's a fairly new jail, no bars). Last night was patrol and traffic stops. So what do I - the shy and retiring type - decide to do? I put the question we have debated here to the 5 officers in attendance. If you stop a CCW holder, do you want to know right away? I was appalled at the responses from the younger officers.
Basically, they said they would remove you from the car, cuff you, secure the weapon and then finish the stop. If you proved to be a good guy, then they would uncuff you and send you on their way. The sole rationalization was that they will be going home safe at the end of the day. They tried to justify it by saying you might be a criminal - to which I responded with the facts from here and elsewhere that basically the CCW holders are the good guys. They seemed surprised at the push-back. When I reinforced what the laws say, one of them - a field training officer no less - announced that there was not a jury who would find against him for cuffing a driver with a gun. Again, the officer was going home at the end of the day.
The older officers agreed - only mildly so IMHO - quoting officer safety.
So here we have officers sworn to uphold the law who feel it is acceptable to violate a citizen and violate the overriding law just so they can feel safe and because they can get away with it. Interesting that one of the civilians in the class backed them up.
I think I have an answer to my unasked question about the officers' willingness to follow illegal orders such as to confiscate firearms if the treaty bho is pushing is ratified.
Amen, and thank you pathfinder. Cops (speaking politically not personally) are a necessary evil. By that I mean that it is less than ideal to have armed agents of the state running around with the power to ruin your life, however it is necessary due to criminals. The problem is that the folks who wear the badge are just like us. They are just humans with same the fears, prejudices etc. It is unreasonable (or just flat stupid) to expect heroism or flawless morals. Sometimes you get both, but just like for us, its the exception. Expect the police to obey the law, follow orders, give an honest days work and ensure that they go home alive at the end of the shift. Expect anything more and you're kidding yourself.
FQ13
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Just about every right has some sort of delay with it. Want to march on washington? guess what you need a permit, pay a large fee and give them months notice before hand.
Want to form a chruch that is not a biz? guess what, more paper work, a back ground check and a even longer wait.
I've marched on DC. Actually around the White House. Gave a protest symbol. I did not have to obtain permission before I did so and I was not arrested, not even stopped and questioned, even though it was in plain sight of the SS. Nor did I have to get permission to travel to DC. I help start a church and did not have to obtain permission to meet. I've also published newspapers (okay the were more like newsletters) and distributed them without requesting any permission, without any waiting period and without paying taxes or fees. To my knowledge the "stamp act" went out in 1776.
I know there are tax, zoning and safety laws but the basic individual right to free speech is not restricted or delayed anywhere near the manner of the RKBA.
I don't think I'm missing the point. Felons have forfeited their rights. The problem is under the current system, it is the innocent citizen who is now considered guilty until a government bureaucracy gives it's approval. Because others commit crimes it is I who must prove my innocence. And this system (NICs) can be used down the road to completely halt all gun sales if the government wants to flex it's muscle. (One reason "they" want NICs to cover ALL transfers is so they can effectively stop all transfers.)
So let me ask how would you keep felons form legally buying guns?
It's so simple. We've already done it. We (our reps) passed a law that makes it illegal for felons to possess a firearm. (I'm not making fun of your typo.) It's the same way we keep people from committing murder, robbery and mayhem. May I ask that you let that soak in. We have laws against all of these things. There is no way to really "prevent" them ahead of time. As a society we can impose severe penalties for committing these activities and hope that for the majority of the time it will prevent their occurrence.
NICs and background checks place a presumption of guilt on law-abiding citizens. I do not accept that. I do not believe we are any safer now with we were in pre-GCA'68. (heck even pre-'34)
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I realize that the previous post reads rather "sternly".
TAB, I didn't mean it to sound like a personal attack. I just used your quotes 'cause they were a convenient jumping off point to spout my say. The word "you" should be taken in the plural.
I obviously do feel rather strongly about presumptive guilt issue, but it wasn't personal.
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I realize that the previous post reads rather "sternly".
TAB, I didn't mean it to sound like a personal attack. I just used your quotes 'cause they were a convenient jumping off point to spout my say. The word "you" should be taken in the plural.
I obviously do feel rather strongly about presumptive guilt issue, but it wasn't personal.
The presumptive guilt thing, ie. wanting the background check but not the waiting period for CCW holders was mine not TABs. And there is no need to apologize, we just disagree.
FQ13
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I'm not sure yu understand how the the NCIS check works. its just a list of people that can not own guns, if your on the list, you can't buy a gun.
I also disagree with CCW?CHL/ what ever you want to call it expemting you. for the simple reason that the back gorund check was done a long time ago. things happen.
I am well aware of how it works. After re-reading my post, I can see how I didn't make the points I wanted, clearly. It seems to happen to me when I stay up till 3AM reading things. What I meant by my comment was that it is easy to provide false identification and information to obtain a firearm through a legal source. (I should have just said that instead of trying to make a joke about the paperwork.) In the end, it does provide a very small amount of help in keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals. Even if it is 0.01%, it's better then nothing. They will always find a way to get around laws, that's why they are called criminals.
I also want to make it clear, that I really don't have any problems with the background checks being done at the time of sale for those who haven't spent the time, money, and effort that is takes to get a carry permit. But the speed of how long it sometimes can take is what bothers me. There were many times when I was in different gun shops and people, honest law-abiding people (sometimes personal friends), would get a delay on the check. They would have to wait for the dealer to contact them once he received the okay. It could take an hour or it could take days to hear back. I would just like to see any upgrade in the system to keep it efficient.
Note: Slow reply on my part... So much good stuff on these forums, I can barely keep up.
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The 4473 form itself is indeed a joke in it's current state. It is executed by the purchaser, at the gun counter, with zero information that can be trusted. The current "background check" is time consuming, is many times falsely rejected or delayed, and as was pointed out, no criminal with a minimal amount of grey matter between his ears would be stupid enough to submit to one.
Look at firearm purchases before the 4473 form existed, (pre 1968). There were no school shootings. Far less gang violence to citizens, and zero guns found in schools themselves. A kid growing up in the 60's wouldn't even entertain the thought of bringing a gun into school. Now it happens on a daily basis, forms, background checks, and all.
What is wrong is society itself, and no amount of laws, background checks, or badmouthing of firearms will change it. We need something to blame. First in the 70's it was the "Saturday Night Special", what ever the hell that was. Now it's "Assault Weapons". In another decade they'll find some other buzz word to blame it on. Lousy parenting along with a deteriorating educational system and family values that are all but non existent, is what is bringing all of this about. Anyone with working sexual organs can reproduce children. We have seen it takes far more to be a parent, and checking a few boxes on a yellow piece of paper won't make up for that responsibility. Bill T.
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What I meant by my comment was that it is easy to provide false identification and information to obtain a firearm through a legal source.
Not possible to falsify a fingerprint though. I have to give my right index print for every firearm purchase in addition to the three forms to fill out, I assumed that was all states but I guess not.
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Not possible to falsify a fingerprint though. I have to give my right index print for every firearm purchase in addition to the three forms to fill out, I assumed that was all states but I guess not.
What state is that? I had to give prints for my CCW, but not for purchases. Without CCW prints aren't required either.
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What state is that? I had to give prints for my CCW, but not for purchases. Without CCW prints aren't required either.
Massachusetts...required for the license and all purchases of firearms, every time. Got a little "booger hook" scanner on a USB to the PC linked to the State. I assumed that was a national system. I've only had a CCW in one other state as a resident, that was CT back in 85 which predates all this latest crap.
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The 4473 form itself is indeed a joke in it's current state. It is executed by the purchaser, at the gun counter, with zero information that can be trusted.
You misunderstand the purpose of the 4473. It isn't meant to directly prevent unlawful purchases at point-of-sale as much as it is the tool with which they use to prosecute later. Many federal crimes aren't prosecuted directly, but are prosecuted either as lying under oath or falsifying information on federal forms. So the 4473 is what they prosecute you with later. Been to federal court seen it in action. Guy was buying 5 guns at a time, taking them to DC and selling them on the street. He was prosecuted for lying on form 4473. The pre-trial debate was whether he should be charged with 5 counts per form (five guns per form) or only 1 count per form. Note also that the gun itself, isn't required as evidence. Only the form.
The form itself doesn't stop anyone bent on criminal activity. It does however place yet another barrier to the exercise of innocent citzens' right to keep and bear arms.
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................and zero guns found in schools themselves. A kid growing up in the 60's wouldn't even entertain the thought of bringing a gun into school.
Actually, growing up in that time frame (graduated HS in '66) we took guns to school all the time. Took them to show and tell. Took my dad's pistol as a prop gun for drama. Also had them in the car/truck for hunting before or after school. I wasn't on the trap/skeet team, but the students that were regularly brought their guns into first period study hall to clean.
The difference was there was no nefarious purpose. The presence of guns themselves was not a problem. The moral standard was much higher and the propensity towards violence much lower.
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I was reading a thread on another site, where a guy was strongly against felons having guns and back ground checks...
Now I'm pretty sure that every one here agrees that violent felons should not be able to own guns.( I know a few people might not...)
We also know that felons can get guns illegally.
Anyways, Other then a back ground check, how could you stop a felon from walking into a gun store and buying a gun?
Logicly, the only way you could keep a segment of the population from owning a gun( legally) is to have a back ground check.
Note you could replace gun with anything else...
PS , yes I am fully aware that back ground checks are a new thing...
Simply tattoo the word "FELON" on their foreheads. Problem solved.
Actually, growing up in that time frame (graduated HS in '66) we took guns to school all the time. Took them to show and tell. Took my dad's pistol as a prop gun for drama. Also had them in the car/truck for hunting before or after school. I wasn't on the trap/skeet team, but the students that were regularly brought their guns into first period study hall to clean.
The difference was there was no nefarious purpose. The presence of guns themselves was not a problem. The moral standard was much higher and the propensity towards violence much lower.
I graduated during the same time frame. Our high school had an armory for the rifle team.
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I was on our high school rifle team. We had a 25 yard indoor range in the basement (.22).
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Not possible to falsify a fingerprint though. I have to give my right index print for every firearm purchase in addition to the three forms to fill out, I assumed that was all states but I guess not.
That's very interesting. Not sure why they wouldn't use finger prints more often. Here in Texas they require a right and left thumb print when renewing a drivers license. If I remember right, on the CHL here I was required to give all tip prints and full finger and thumb prints. My next renewal is coming up soon. Pretty sure I'll have to resubmit all new print cards.
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No finger printing in Kentucky, unless you've been a bad boy. ;D No prints required for gun purchases, CCW, or driver's license. I guess we're just low tech... but that's just fine by me.
Swoop
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No finger printing in Kentucky, unless you've been a bad boy. ;D No prints required for gun purchases, CCW, or driver's license. I guess we're just low tech... but that's just fine by me.
Swoop
Maybe in Kentucky they figure that fingerprints are like DNA.........everybody has the same. ;D
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Hey! Unless your from Kentucky you can't make fun of 'em. 8)
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Hey! Unless your from Kentucky you can't make fun of 'em. 8)
Sure we can! In fact it's pretty easy. ;D
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....in Texas they require a right and left thumb print when renewing a drivers license.
In Georiga they encode your thumb print in a 2d bar code on the back of the license. I'm not sure what purpose it serves. I've never seen a bar code reader for it.
The CCW has your actual thumb print on it, but again. Whose going to sit there in the field and compare thumbprints to verify identity.
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In Georiga they encode your thumb print in a 2d bar code on the back of the license. I'm not sure what purpose it serves. I've never seen a bar code reader for it.
The CCW has your actual thumb print on it, but again. Whose going to sit there in the field and compare thumbprints to verify identity.
Mine has my thumbprint too, problem is, it's a computer generated black spot, doesn't even look like a print...
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In NH the only thing you get finger printed for is arrest.
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We have had 4473 forms for over 40 years now. We've had background checks for well over a decade. I think most would gladly trade the crime rate, along with society in general, 40 years ago as opposed to now. Gun control measures have increased, society has declined from a behavioral standpoint. More laws, paper, and ink are not what is required here. A better behaving society is. Unfortunately, that doesn't come out of a Congressional committee like coffee out of a vending machine. Bill T.
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Maybe in Kentucky they figure that fingerprints are like DNA.........everybody has the same. ;D
My family tree actually has branches, thank you very much. I believe you have us confused with West Virginia, which is where I was actually born. So, ha... wait a minute! ;D
Swoop
P.S. Do I really need to defend my state to guys from Iowa (children of the corn state) and Florida (some of the 'Glades folk make us look down right citified)? 8)
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This is completely off topic, but since we were discussing home states, I hope your not a college basketball fan, Haz. Next year we're (UK) gonna make Donovan cry. :o I can't wait. OOOOh, C-A-T-S, Cats, Cats, Cats!!! 8)
Swoop, who is dreaming of Ashley Judd and applying his blue and white war paint as we speak.
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Swoop, couldn't care less about college sports and I never watch hoops at any level.
(and I'm from PA originally)
;)
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(and I'm from PA originally)
;)
I knew there was something special about you. ;D
Don't tell FQ where you're from or he'll try and have you thrown out of the state......yankee. ;)
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We have had 4473 forms for over 40 years now. We've had background checks for well over a decade. I think most would gladly trade the crime rate, along with society in general, 40 years ago as opposed to now. Gun control measures have increased, society has declined from a behavioral standpoint. More laws, paper, and ink are not what is required here. A better behaving society is. Unfortunately, that doesn't come out of a Congressional committee like coffee out of a vending machine. Bill T.
Apparently you have never drank "vending machine coffee". Vending machine coffee and Congressional attempts to "fix" society are VERY much alike, they both suck. ;D
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Right thumb for DL and to buy a hand gun.( yeah those super evil handguns... I'm more worried about the guy with a long gun)
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In Georiga they encode your thumb print in a 2d bar code on the back of the license. I'm not sure what purpose it serves. I've never seen a bar code reader for it.
The CCW has your actual thumb print on it, but again. Whose going to sit there in the field and compare thumbprints to verify identity.
My Ga CCW has right index finger......may vary by individual county probate court.....? ? ?
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I knew there was something special about you. ;D
Don't tell FQ where you're from or he'll try and have you thrown out of the state......yankee. ;)
Haz is okay, at least for a wihle. We'll go after the unrmed yankees first. ;D
FQ13