Author Topic: Bin Laden is dead!  (Read 19161 times)

fightingquaker13

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2011, 01:48:06 PM »
FQ, being clueless you may want to review your "military law".
Following orders you know are illegal is a criminal offense, whacking prisoners is considered a war crime, and assassination was specifically outlawed during the 70's.
Wrong Tom. Legally its a lot more complicated, and a hell of a lot more entertaining. Here's a very brief legal overview. It starts with Ford and ends with BO, with segues though Carter, Reagan, W. and BO. You know it has to be good. ;D

Here's the deal. Ford signed Executive Order 11905 prohibiting assassinations for political purposes after the Church Committee Report. That was strengthened (by Carter ::)) in Executive Order 12036. It basically kept the spooks out of dealing with US citizens, leaving that exclusively to the FBI, but also just flat out banned assassinations. Reagan signed Executive Order 12333 stating the same ban. However all three are Executive Orders, not law, and can be countermanded, quite lawfully, by simple Presidential order under authority of the Comander in Chief clause in Article II. A Presidential Finding that someone poses a clear and present danger, with notification of the "Big Four" has been held to be the gold standard here, but it is not legally necessary.  An Executive Order for actions taken abroad can be counter-mandated by another, and the military is obligated to obey as it is Constitutionally lawful.

As exhibit A, I give you W.. In Executive Order 13470 signed in 2004, he basically reorganized the Intelligence Community into the shape we see now, in order to make it fall into line with The Patriot Act (among other concerns). However, hidden in and amongst the the delegation of responsibilities for who was responsible for what, was this little gem:

4)  Conduct covert action activities approved by the President.  No agency except the Central Intelligence Agency (or the Armed Forces of the United States in time of war declared by the Congress or during any period covered by a report from the President to the Congress consistent with the War Powers Resolution, Public Law 93‑148) may conduct any covert action activity unless the President determines that another agency is more likely to achieve a particular objective;
 
Essentially, this says that any covert activity, of what ever nature, provided it has Presidential and Congressional approval (in the broadest sense) is kosher. This means the "clear and present danger" test is gone, as is the need to notify the "Gang of Four". Congress, by giving vague approval to actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the War on Terror, have essentially given the green light for a President to use this clause to order a hit. Who used it? Not just W., but also BO. W. green lighted Bin Laden, though BO was in charge when Bin Laden died. However, it was an all BO operation when we took down radical cleric, terrorist, and US citizen Al Awlaki in Yemen. It was the CIA/The Air Force that did the deed with a drone, but the the deed was done. All perfectly legal Tom, because Congress approved action against Al Queda. Actually, it was even Kosher under International Law, (as though we care)  , because the UN named Al Awlaki as a member of Al Queda and International Law recognizes the right of nation states to use force against declared enemies.

This was a long post, but I hope a useful one. The moral of the story is this. With the exception of political assassinations which we seem to have sworn off post Castro, the US does engage in assassination and it is legal as long as it has Presidential sanction and takes place abroad. Even US citizens abroad can be considered legitimate targets.
FQ13  

tombogan03884

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2011, 10:03:04 AM »
Bear in mind that I don't have any problem with whacking non US citizens who make them selves annoying.
I think it would have been the best way to handle Saddam, and we should hit Chavez.
On the other hand we would have derived some good propaganda value from having UBL do a perp walk, with occasional reminders that the "Great Sheik" was sitting in an American cage like a monkey in a zoo.
The down side of course is that like the socialist Euro/Palestinian terrorists of the 70's and 80's he would, if alive, serve as a rallying point for further attacks attempting to free him.

fightingquaker13

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2011, 10:15:50 AM »
Bear in mind that I don't have any problem with whacking non US citizens who make them selves annoying.
I think it would have been the best way to handle Saddam, and we should hit Chavez.
On the other hand we would have derived some good propaganda value from having UBL do a perp walk, with occasional reminders that the "Great Sheik" was sitting in an American cage like a monkey in a zoo.
The down side of course is that like the socialist Euro/Palestinian terrorists of the 70's and 80's he would, if alive, serve as a rallying point for further attacks attempting to free him.
It might have been a lesson in "the rule of law", but no American anywhere would have been safe from being kidnapped and held hostage for his release until the guy died of old age or a needle. I'm not a big Stephen King fan, but here I have to give the man props. "Sometimes dead is better". ;D
FQ13

tombogan03884

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2011, 10:19:53 AM »
It might have been a lesson in "the rule of law", but no American anywhere would have been safe from being kidnapped and held hostage for his release until the guy died of old age or a needle. I'm not a big Stephen King fan, but here I have to give the man props. "Sometimes dead is better". ;D
FQ13

Simpler any way.

Timothy

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New Book about Bin-Laden Raid in question!
« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2011, 09:17:06 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/spec-ops-command-seal-raid-book-lie-090244352.html

As I said before, unless and until the men involved break their silence, everything is questionable...

FTA

"Pfarrer has made a two-decade career out of his roughly eight years with the SEALs. After retiring as a lieutenant in the late 1980s he co-wrote the screenplay for the 1990 film "Navy Seals," starring Charlie Sheen. Two books about SEALs followed. His current book traces his own history with the unit, and finishes with two chapters on the raid. It includes romantic descriptions of the SEAL raiders."

This and "GI Jane" are probably the worst Navy movies I've personally every watched...

Sponsor

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #105 on: Today at 07:01:53 AM »

tombogan03884

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #105 on: November 15, 2011, 09:23:16 AM »
"It's just not true," U.S. Special Operations Command spokesman Col. Tim Nye said. "It's not how it happened."

Laden with conspiracy theories and attacks on the Obama White House


What else would you expect the official spokesman to say ?
"Why yes, the Commander in Chief is a POS."
Not the quickest route to General.    ::)

Timothy

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2011, 09:50:09 AM »
"Why yes, the Commander in Chief is a POS."
Not the quickest route to General.    ::)

True...the sad part for career Military is that they have to answer to this President knowing the disdain he more than likely holds for them in private. 

Either way, the dudes dead, end of story as we'll never know the truth.

jnevis

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #107 on: November 15, 2011, 12:12:08 PM »
The author has colon cancer but swears he was part of the group that trained the Teams for the mission, really?
I don't care how buddy-buddy you are with the Teams, the guys that went on the mission aren't going to tell you squat, since they know blabbing gets them a nice Article 92, 98, 133, and 134 hearing for improper handling of classified material.

Sure the JSOC PIO might be covering his butt, but do you really think this tool has THAT much "insider" info?
When seconds mean the difference between life and death, the police will be minutes away.

You are either SOLVING the problem, or you ARE the problem.

JC5123

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Re: Bin Laden is dead!
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2011, 12:33:01 PM »
The author has colon cancer but swears he was part of the group that trained the Teams for the mission, really?
I don't care how buddy-buddy you are with the Teams, the guys that went on the mission aren't going to tell you squat, since they know blabbing gets them a nice Article 92, 98, 133, and 134 hearing for improper handling of classified material.

Sure the JSOC PIO might be covering his butt, but do you really think this tool has THAT much "insider" info?

I agree with you that as far as operators go, classified means classified. You tend to not open your trap when it's your butt on the line. However, our government has been pretty careless with classified info. Stuff gets leaked all the time. It surprises me that we don't have a meeting with our enemies before we attack to discuss how the operation will go. We the public do not need to know the details of the operation. For that matter, we didn't need to know he was toast until all the intel was analyzed and followed up on. The fact that BHO was in such a hurry to take credit for it made a lot of that info worthless.

Imagine the outcome of the Normandy landings if we had the security of todays politicians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/9/newsid_4013000/4013143.stm

Marines landing in Somalia not to machine guns, but to the media? WTF Everyone of the media should have been rounded up and taken prisoner during that assault. All footage confiscated. Things like this not only jeopardize our soldiers lives, but it shows our enemies our tactics, allowing them easy access to training footage.
I am a member of my nation's chosen soldiery.
God grant that I may not be found wanting,
that I will not fail this sacred trust.

 

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