might want to check this out about ammo

[Walter45Auto]

the stuff's too expensive for anyone without a government-funded ammo budget to use. The only ppl who I think MIGHT use these type of rounds are Air Marshalls. SWAT teams could find them useful, but I doubt the department heads would pay that much when defense ammo like Federal can be had for less than half the price for a box of more rounds. Your Good Ol' boys down in TX/GA/wherever with their carry permits ain't gonna spring for this stuff.

[Tyler Durden]

I really don't mean to drift this thread that far off topic...but...

I have gotten in quite a few internet pissing contests lately because....well...because in my opinion people:

A.  just believe everything they read and hear

B.  don't, in general, have a questioning attitude or mentality themselves

C.  just find it easier to pass off something they heard and unbeknownst to them come off making it sound like the gospel truth   
    (read that as lazy)

D.  weren't taught to think critically

E.  don't view what other people tell them in the light that that person may have his/her own agenda to push

F.  all of the above.

I will give you an extreme example.  Seven hundred years ago, people thought that the earth was flat.  Everybody said it and knew it, so it must have been true.

I could give other examples, but I think I have made my point.

Anywhoo...getting back more on topic...like I said I will stick to my cheap cast boolits because...well...they are cheap....and I have to balance that cheapness against the highly unlikely event that I will ever have to shoot someone, and kill them, righteously, and then be taken to either a civil or criminal trial later on.

Anywhooo....if anyone couldn't see through the hype of the ammo in question...well they probably also drink Brawndo:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04

[tombogan03884]

Actually according to Mossad Ayoob, (Founder of Lethal force Institute, Police Officer, and Nationally recocognized expert witness for the last 20 years ) FQ is sort of right, and 2 How is wrong.
According to an Interview Ayoob did, (I think it was Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, but I'm not going to listen to all of them to find the link ) He said hand loads were a no no for SD. However, the prosecutor trying to paint you as not being satisfied with the damage of commercial ammo is only a small part of it, (you would be in a gun unfriendly court, and have problems any way ) The primary reason he cited, along with an example from personal experience, was that The POLICE investigation bases range estimates on powder residue, closer range, more residue, longer range less. if you are using commercial loads forensics tests can now establish distance fairly accurately against factory samples, where as this is less accurate IF they believe your claims about the load you used, with factory ammo you have Lab verification of your story, with handloads it's your word against what the Prosecutor claims.
I strongly recommend NOT using handloads for SD.

[GUNS-R-US]

I will stick with shot placement with my own hand cast lead boolits stuffed into my own reloaded/handloaded ammo.

 

I Agree with FQ here don't use hand loads. Federal makes some very nice expanding FMJ rounds for you guys in New Jersey to use so you get around the ban on HP ammo. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun.aspx

This is an urban legend There has been no documented accounts of anyone ever getting busted in court for using reloaded ammo.

You can do what you want of course, but I've heard Massad Ayoob discuss this before and his reasons were logical. So I'm certainly not go to do it. Their are alternatives to using handloads/reloads so I'm not going to risk my future freedom on it true or not. I can't recall specifically he discussed it in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" but it should be required reading for anyone to carry a firearm. It might discuss it though here is another pace to investigate if you wish, http://comcondev.com/ It's the Armed Citizens Legal Defense network, LLC. I think membership their is a good Idea for anyone that owns a gun for SD purposes!

FQ, you have spouted this before and you were taught wrong.

If you can't provide proof, then you are wrong and need to stop posting incorrect info that others might mistake as gospel.

The burden is not for us to prove you wrong (because no such acts have taken place to find) but for you to prove yourself correct.

You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.

In other words......YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!!!!!!

 

Well said Junkie....

As he is not risking anything by carrying factory loads, then I'd say it not his place to research it for YOU. Go ahead carry your hand loads/reloads IF you shoot somebody and IF an overzealous prosecutor tries to take your freedom for it then you will have no one but yourself to blame! IF you never shoot anyone then no harm no foul! But that's a lot of IF's. And I like my FREEDOM!!

[seeker_two]

Actually according to Mossad Ayoob, (Founder of Lethal force Institute, Police Officer, and Nationally recocognized expert witness for the last 20 years ) FQ is sort of right, and 2 How is wrong.
According to an Interview Ayoob did, (I think it was Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, but I'm not going to listen to all of them to find the link ) He said hand loads were a no no for SD. However, the prosecutor trying to paint you as not being satisfied with the damage of commercial ammo is only a small part of it, (you would be in a gun unfriendly court, and have problems any way ) The primary reason he cited, along with an example from personal experience, was that The POLICE investigation bases range estimates on powder residue, closer range, more residue, longer range less. if you are using commercial loads forensics tests can now establish distance fairly accurately against factory samples, where as this is less accurate IF they believe your claims about the load you used, with factory ammo you have Lab verification of your story, with handloads it's your word against what the Prosecutor claims.
I strongly recommend NOT using handloads for SD.

Agreed....having ammo that's performance can be replicated by the CSI's may be the thin line that proves your side of the event. And most handloaders aren't as precise as the ammo factories when it comes to reproducing loads.  That's why I even make sure any FMJ I carry are factory....and I save the box tabs to show what lot it came from....

[Sponsor]

[GUNS-R-US]

More back to the original topic I've seen that before on the Box O Truth website made me glad on two counts one the winchester ammo he tested first is the same stuff I carry and it made me very happy to see it performed top notch. Second I almost bought some of that crap at the gun show a few years ago the damage it did to a block of clay was impressive, but were not made of clay were made of water. So I'm doubly glad I didn't waste any money on that ammo!

[Timothy]

Heck....I live in Assachusetts and I carry factory JHP's, I was just trying to be a smartass with my comment because it's fun to pick on FQ....I don't reload and probably never will.

Up here, we recently had a shooting by an off duty cop (he may have been a special duty cop, whatever that means) while he was in a hospital, killed the fella trying to stab a doctor so he wasn't even part of the frakus.  He was off duty, with his own firearm, in the right place at the right time.  Crazy BG, ZERO!  Good Guy +1...

I don't recall any discussion in the news or in print pertaining to what his CCW sidearm was loaded with.  It was justified, pure and simple.  If the shooting is rightous, it doesn't matter what type of bullet it was IMO...if not, then get a good lawyer, prosecutors are paid like crap anyway.  Find one better, smarter and more expensive....and hope for the best.  When it comes to the safety of my family, I'll go to jail if I think I'm in the right.

.02....your milage, yada, yada.....

[jaybet]

If you can't provide proof, then you are wrong and need to stop posting incorrect info that others might mistake as gospel.

The burden is not for us to prove you wrong (because no such acts have taken place to find) but for you to prove yourself correct.

You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.

Geez...I really didn't take it that way when FQ said that...seemed more like an opinion or a "belief". I admire and trust a LOT of you guys, but as far as I know there's only ONE guy who dictated the gospel, and he doesn't post here. If you assume someone's opinion is fact, then shame on ya.
My opinion about my own reloads for SD is just that....my opinion. Anyone is free to read it and agree, disagree, or whatever.
It seemed to me, though, that FQ was saying that he realized that maybe he was misinformed and would like to know which side is backed up by fact.
It's one of the great things about this site is how folks of different strokes can converse without getting into pissing contests like on a lot of other sites.

[tombogan03884]

Tyler, one comment on your post, If you ever DO need to defend yourself, the extra few bucks you spend on a box of factory CARRY loads may save you a buttload of cash in extra legal fees. Is it worth the risk of being WRONG ?

[Tyler Durden]

Massad Ayoob?

Massad Ayoob??

Massad AYOOB!!!



Did anyone actually do a liitle research to figure out for themselves that all this "do NOT use handloads in your self defense firearms" mantra all stems from one source?

That one and only source being Massad Ayoob!

Did anyone ever reckon that maybe ol' Mas there is a shill for the ammunition manufacturers and he wants you to use whatever ammo he gets as schwag from whatever the manufacturer of the week happens to be?

Again, this is me: