Work for Food, Shelter and Life

[tt11758]

We aren't disagreeing. All I want is for you to tell me what is waste and why. Then we cut it and refund the cash. As far as voluntary. Well, reduce taxes to zero. Then we get zero government. Great, until you want to trade mark something, keep the Chinese tanks out of Omaha, or buy a medication that has been tested. There is a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. It is this. Lincon said it best. The purpose of Government is do only those things for people they can't do for themselves. I agree. But don't give me the whole government bad/taxes evil schtick without laying out a few principles of what we SHOULDN'T be doing. Odds are, I'll agree. The thing is we need a LIMITED government, and it won't run on charitble contributions, the free rider principle proves this. Maybe it should be voluntary. We can go back to Icelandic law. Pay taxes or don't. But if you don't, no police or fire protection, you can't drive on public roads etc. The point is we do need some public services. Pick them and pay for them. What is your alternative?
FQ13
PS I agree with Tom on illegal thing. I would bet good money TAB would still be working if he didn't have to compete with companies hiring illegals for half the wages and overhead he pays his guys, and a miniscule chance of getting caught.

FQ, you apparently missed my point with the churches and clubs reference.  That point being that, inasmuch as those are voluntarily joined organizations, the comparison of tithing and dues to taxes is absurd.

You have never heard me say "government bad/taxes evil", what you have heard me say is "excessive government bad/ excessive taxes evil".  There is a stark difference, my over-educated friend.  Government SHOULD do ONLY what one cannot do for oneself.  IE:  defense, infrastructure, and precious little else.  I will even go so far as to say that, as a citizenry, we should offer a hand up (not a hand OUT) to those productive members of society who are experiencing hardship through no fault of their own.  That being said, I believe that hand up is best offered by private charities, religious organizations, etc.  (And God knows those could be more fully funded if the asshats in Washington weren't wasting so much of our money.)  As for those suffering hardships due to a lack effort or motivation.....screw em.

[tombogan03884]

We aren't disagreeing. All I want is for you to tell me what is waste and why. Then we cut it and refund the cash. As far as voluntary. Well, reduce taxes to zero. Then we get zero government. Great, until you want to trade mark something, keep the Chinese tanks out of Omaha, or buy a medication that has been tested. There is a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. It is this. Lincon said it best. The purpose of Government is do only those things for people they can't do for themselves. I agree. But don't give me the whole government bad/taxes evil schtick without laying out a few principles of what we SHOULDN'T be doing. Odds are, I'll agree. The thing is we need a LIMITED government, and it won't run on charitble contributions, the free rider principle proves this. Maybe it should be voluntary. We can go back to Icelandic law. Pay taxes or don't. But if you don't, no police or fire protection, you can't drive on public roads etc. The point is we do need some public services. Pick them and pay for them. What is your alternative?
FQ13
PS I agree with Tom on illegal thing. I would bet good money TAB would still be working if he didn't have to compete with companies hiring illegals for half the wages and overhead he pays his guys, and a miniscule chance of getting caught.

All welfare programs, these were never any business of the Federal Govt., and for the first 150 years of our country were handled more efficiently at the local level by private entities called Aid societies, Church groups, and Charities. they aided the unfortunate instead of supporting the lazy.
the entire Dept of Education, better schools were funded with far less money by public subscription on the local level
The entire Dept of Health and Human Services, see above
I could go on for a while but I don't feel like googling a list of federal Departments and agencies .
The fact is that about 3/4 of the Federal bureaucracy is not authorized under a verbatim reading of the Constitution or the intent expressed in the "Federalist Papers " on top of that it is either ineffective, failed, or better managed at State and local levels.

[tt11758]

All welfare programs, these were never any business of the Federal Govt., and for the first 150 years of our country were handled more efficiently at the local level by private entities called Aid societies, Church groups, and Charities. they aided the unfortunate instead of supporting the lazy.
the entire Dept of Education, better schools were funded with far less money by public subscription on the local level
The entire Dept of Health and Human Services, see above
I could go on for a while but I don't feel like googling a list of federal Departments and agencies .
The fact is that about 3/4 of the Federal bureaucracy is not authorized under a verbatim reading of the Constitution or the intent expressed in the "Federalist Papers " on top of that it is either ineffective, failed, or better managed at State and local levels.

And that, Mr. B is why you're at the TOP of the ticket for 2012.  You took exactly what I was saying, but crafted it in a much more concise way.   

[JSC3ATLCSO]

Sorry Been gone for the NYE holiday.  First one I've had off for 9 Years so I'll read up and respond!

[JSC3ATLCSO]

Your on the right track, but the government programs won't bring the economy back up.  If the government pays out a bunch of money for work, like they doing now, then the money has to come from somewhere, us, and we don't have any, so they 'make' more money which is like making more stock in a company except your numbers of shares don't increase but you value decreases.  What we need are private sector jobs funded by the private sector.  And that's where getting rid of the lawyers, regulations, and taxes comes in.  Let me get back to work with out the nonsense that government and lawyers have introduced to the system, I'll have more effort to put forth towards making a product or delivering a service, and I'll have more money to hire other employees to help me do so.  Government employees don't stimulate the economy, because they don't make money.  Private sector does.  Like I tell my dad, a government employee, 'we can't all work for the government, somebody has to pay your pay check, and its not going to be you.'

And in regards to Mexico.  The government can't pay people to make long term lifestyle changes, they have to want it on their own, because as soon as the government checks stop they're right back where they started.  And if that's not the definition of government dependency, I don't know what is.  People pull themselves up out of the gutter all the time.  If you want something, work hard, treat people right, and go get it.  It four o'clock in the morning here in Austin and that's what I'm doing right now, only sixteen more hours to go today.

I guess my point was that we are already paying out money to people that are sitting on their asses so why can’t we make them work unless there is a reason they can’t.  ie quadriplegic.  We have programs already for mentally and physically disabled.  So if you can move your arms you can do something. 

With the Mexico thing I don’t know the dates on this program. (when it started, is it still going on or when it will end.) they are just trying to get the kids healthier and more educated to get out of the “rut” they are in.  The problems in the areas targeted the kids go to school until they are big enough to go to the fields and then they never return to school and continue the cycle.  I think the intention is to only get one maybe two generations through to break this cycle.  Even by Mexico’s standards it is only $60 a month/kid average.  More for girls than boys and more for all as long as they keep passing the milestones set by the program.  I DO NOT THINK THIS IS SOMETHING FOR AMERICA.  The point of the example was to show that even Mexico is doing something to try and improve the countries standards.

[Sponsor]

[JSC3ATLCSO]

Just a couple of points.  You draw no distinction between people who are unemployed due to circumstances beyond their control, and those who are unemployed by choice.  Those who are unemployed due to circumstance draw unemployment compensation.  This, unlike the money paid to those "sitting on their ass with their hand out" is much like the compensation paid by your auto insurance company when you have an accident.

The other point, while government projects can assist in moderating short-term financial hardship, they don't create jobs, they create work.

Yeah.. As soon as you said that I in no way meant to be demeaning to those that unemployment was beyond their control.  As a continuance of the thought… Wasn’t the great depression out of many peoples control.  People moved to work for the government programs and moved to where there were jobs in their area of expertise. 

Also another note.  Can I be in the cabinet for T&T 2012?

[tombogan03884]

 I'm sure we'll be able to find you a job, Probably as the guy who goes around closing down Departments and agencies, we haven't filled that one yet  
Getting back to the topic the Programs like the CCC were ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS. and the Government works like Hoover Dam were only a temporary fix. when they were finished those people were out of work again. FDR's policies even then were shown to have extended, not shortened the depression. What actually ended it was Hitler's rearming of Germany which caused the other European nations to start scrambling to catch up. this lead to huge orders to US companies for planes arms and munitions which of course lead to huge expansion and hiring in the war industries.

[JSC3ATLCSO]

It can't be as bad as the lazy F'ers that just sit around getting paid with my money.  Our Infrastructure is deteriorating at a rapid pace and I don’t know why we can’t be using the government money to fund contractors. 
I heard this maybe on this very thread I haven’t  had a chance to read all of the comments posted yet.  But why not tax companies for migrant labor like we impose tariffs on imported goods. 
I have worked for many years now.  Started when I was about 3-4 working for my Dad and Grandpa at their Sewer and Water business.  Professional “GO’FER” Running machines and other stuff that a 4 y.o. shouldn’t be doing but I luckily never crashed anything and have been a very mechanical person ever since.  My preteen and teen years bailing hay and straw, planting trees for the neighbors tree farm and through Jr/Sr High School on a Family farm operation with a small confinement and crops.  I know that kids need to get their education but why does Lawmakers and Society just keep making kids lazy by imposing the strict child labor laws and etc.  I went to school kept my grades at an acceptable level played baseball and wrestled from youth through high school and still found time to work in there.  On the farm in high school I still worked about 30 hours a week. 2-3 hours after practice then on the weekends 10+ hour days.  Unless there was a tournament or something.  I graduated high school early and started in the Plastics factory at 7.50 an hour.  Then the sheriff’s office worked my way up to 17+ish an hour and now I’m a little better than that at an R.E.C. Took many years of working to get to this self sustainable level and starting to get a little ahead. 
I tell that life history which probably bores many people to tell this one.  The guy I farm for, His son had NO interest in the farm and was not made to work through high school. (mom said high school was his job)  Kid goes to a C. College for a technical degree in Building Construction, Drops out in the first semester Because “He knows everything they are teaching” (which he did not!) and then comes home and expects to get a factory job of some sort with the least hourly amount of 14/hour.  GET A F’ING JOB!  WTF.  Kids don’t want to work anymore and that translates into lazy adults.  We’ll be like Mexico if we don’t start making people work. 
I am again in no way trying to put down anyone that is out of work.  Everyone here would much rather be working than not I’m sure.  Unless you are retired then you deserve it!  Thank you for your service.  It is these non-self-improving types that we keep trying to fix and there is no fixing.  Make them work for their compensation is all I’m saying.