Author Topic: Interesting article from Suarez  (Read 15858 times)

tombogan03884

  • Guest
Interesting article from Suarez
« on: January 04, 2010, 01:59:39 PM »
K...I began looking at this after reading a post at warriortalk some time back.  Our friend Iraq Ninja (a contractor currently in Iraq), had posted that he'd done this with one of his Glocks and what his impressions were. I want to point out first that IraqNinja is a good to go guy and when he puts something on one of his guns, it calls for some attention.
 
I also know that the competitive shooting crowd has used red dot optics with great results for some time, although until recently, most of the red dots intended for pistol usage have been quite large.  As well, Kelly McCann used a Docter optical sight on one of his Glocks in a DVD.  So, before anyone accuses me of claiming to invent this, be advised, the idea is not new. I will also say that while the things that men like Brian Enos, Rob Leatham, and others train for are different than what we train for, we would be fools to not look at the advancements that come from their side of the house and adopt them, with modifications perhaps, for our applications.
 
Some might question why?
 
Well, in truth, for shots in a reactive problem inside of five yards, you could do just fine without any sights at all.  But if you need shots outside of that realm, or long shots such as what may be required in an active shooter role, you will need sights.  Regular sights will do fine if situations are right, but often I get calls asking about night sights, and big dots, and other types of sights to enhance visibility, enhance accuracy via better sight picture refinement, and the most common, to make up for too many candles on your birthday cake. In my experience, none of the solutions really fix the problem for anything outside of common CCW shoot the mugger distances (where you don't need sights in the first place!!).
 
To hit, you need to do a number of things.  First of course is get the pistol pointed toward the threat. Next is to refine that point if necessary.  Again, for precise shots close up, and for long shots, a refinement of the "point" will be needed.  That refinement is a blend of the ability to see the target, the ability to see the sights (front AND rear), and the ability to discern sights from target.
 
See the target but cannot see the sights or index them on target = miss
See the target, see the sights, but cannot index them on target = miss
See target, see sights, index sights on target = hit

Miss one of the three points: Seeing target, seeing sights, indexing sights, and you will miss.

If you cannot see the front sight well, you can add enhnacements to the fron sight and see it better, but if you can't index that sight well on a target, you still won't be able to hit it.

The answer, is to add a red dot optic such as the Aimpoint, J-Point, Trijicon Red Dot, or Docter style sights.  The jury is still out on which one will do what we need to do. That coupled with regular glasses (not your special reading shooting glasses) that you can see the target with will solve the hitting problem.

Red dot sights allow you to see the target, plus see the dot in the same focal plane. As well, it is relatively easy to index that red dot onto the target. All of that equals a big H-I-T. To those who disdain technology I will say that our troops are almost exclusively using them and have been for nearly a decade with no issues. Sure its nice to be able to use your iron sights, but if you cannot physically and visually do that, then your only viable option, if your goal is to use the rifle to its utmost utility, is to use a red dot sight.
 
We add red dot sights to rifles all the time and nobody thinks that is out of line.  So, if one has the economic wherewithall, and the desire to extend his abilities, why should it be a problem to add one to a pistol?  Short answer - it is not.
So to continue with the experiment, I mounted an old H-1 Micro on a Glock slide. First impressions....it seems a small overall package for what I expected. The pistol is a little top heavy compared to a non-Aimpoint Glock, but it doesn't seem to be a big deal really in terms of handling.

I modified an Archangel by cutting away whatever was in the way, and found that appendix carry doesn't change as the sight will not protrude or print, being in a better hidden position that perhaps in other types of carry. Yes, my intention is to be able to carry this.  If I cannot, I may as well use a rifle.

Presentations to point are no different. Here is the thing...if the presentation is not perfect, you will not pick up the dot right away...perhaps a training issue. Still...if you see bad guy in your optics tube, you are good to go. Or...if you see bad guy surrounding your tube, you are also good to go. This is an extension of the caveman Eotech and Meat&Metal Concepts we already teach. For close range work, nothing changes from what you do with an iron sighted pistol.
 
Mid Range CQB stuff (7 yards - 10 yards) you can simple shoot through the scope...in other words, if you see bad guy in the scope, you shoot regardless of whether you've found the dot or not.

For Close range CQB stuff (3 to 5 yards) you can use the outline of the scope like a caveman eotech and simply shoot when the target surrounds the optic.
 
I see this as best for longer shots, or precise close shots (head shots on a partially hidden adversary for example)...or a few other applications to include extreme low light usage. Adding this to a Glock with a rail will give you the most complete low light, combat pistol possible. Add a happy stick and you have something to put on the nightstand. Take off the happy stick and light and you can carry it as a CCW.

One thing about the red dot Micro that is not seen as much with irons is the POA/POI and hold over-under issues. With Irons, you expect eyeball shots at a certain distance...maybe 7 yards, and after that...center of mass. That is a result of the coincidence of POA-POI at one given point.  I basically stood off at about ten yards and zeroed the Micro. I was shooting at 1" dots and was hitting easily. A little closer and I have the sight offset issues we normally see with a rifle. Not a big issue but you do need to be aware of it.

Another aspect of this experiment has been to send a slide to David Bowie of Bowie Tactical.  When I get it back we will add a Trijicon Red Dot and re-examine the system.  The red dot eliminates the need to align two small sights and a target as all the visual input is one the same sighting/focal plane. It is a very big short cut. As well the dot stands out against everything far better than any sights.

I am not 100% on this yet, but I like it and will continue to work with it. It may be a big advance in this area....we will see.
 
To Comment On This please visit
 
 
http://www.warriortalk.com

texcaliber

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1043
  • "My best friends are Smith & Wesson"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 08:45:03 PM »
Long thought process to compare the optic vs. iron without a single mention of laser grips which would seem to add to every Pro and eliminate a few Cons in the debate.
"All I need in life is Love and a .45!"

callithump

  • Very Active Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 152
  • Truth sits on the lips of dying men.
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2010, 12:59:21 AM »
There was a smith who relieved the top of Glocks to mount the Doktor red dot and it was nice work. Installing the CT is an easier way to go and there would be no mods to a holster. It even improves the grip angle on a Glock. Breathtaking is the only way to describe the advances we see in technology.

LoveMyXds

  • cogito ergo boom
  • Very Active Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 08:33:32 AM »
I find lasers to be distracting with their shakiness at long range...  Red dot definitely more confidence inspiring when shooting long range. Just more natural for me I guess..... or perhaps I meed to lay off on he coffee!  ;D
Regards,
Scott
"Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea."

fightingquaker13

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11894
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 09:00:20 AM »
I think the real question is does long range accuracy matter for SD? If I want 1" groups at 25 yards, I'm not going to use a sub compact. Most (not all) of the scenarios where I can see myself engaging at that range would call for a 12 gauge or AR. Not to say it couldn't happen, just for civilian SD, the mugger 15 feet away is the likely scenario. I wouldn't put a clunky, high dollar scope I will probably never need on a carry piece. If anything I would go laser. If I were open carrying as a cop or soldier, I might give a different answer.
FQ13

Sponsor

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #5 on: Today at 09:07:51 AM »

ratcatcher55

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1039
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2010, 11:35:59 AM »
I can see that an optic might make it easier to make a head shot at 25 yards but that not the mission for my CCW pistol.
I could probably greatly increase my hit ratio with an optic at 50 or 100 yards with pistol  but I would prefer to manuever either away or closer to the threat.

It will be interesting to see what his results are.

tombogan03884

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2010, 12:08:41 PM »
 We had a topic on long range SD shooting a while back.
The example that was used was launching a boat you and your SD pistol are at the boat when your wife, parking the truck and trailer 50-100 yards away is confronted by a situation. The question was, can you make the shot, or are you a helpless witness ?
I'm not commenting one way or another, I'm just repeating something I remember reading.

ratcatcher55

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1039
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2010, 01:09:02 PM »
We had a topic on long range SD shooting a while back.
The example that was used was launching a boat you and your SD pistol are at the boat when your wife, parking the truck and trailer 50-100 yards away is confronted by a situation. The question was, can you make the shot, or are you a helpless witness ?
I'm not commenting one way or another, I'm just repeating something I remember reading.

My wife would light the mope up with her own 642!  She tends to zipper the target low to high so it going to really really hurt.

A shot from 50-100 yards from a drifting boat? I can't make that shot with a pistol with people moving. I might put one into the truck and see what happens.

LoveMyXds

  • cogito ergo boom
  • Very Active Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 01:37:40 PM »
I understand that most SD scenarios are at bad breath distances. Point shooting and sights don't get used often. The Docter optic in Saurez's pictures is super compact. Even Gabe admits that the actual advantage withthe red dot is for fast moving targets and precission mid to long range shots. Getting a proper sight picture under stress with a moving target with a pistol is difficult at best. But there isn't always a long gun handy...
 Saurez definitely is not a tech junkie so if he is looking more closely at it then it than I for one can't wait to see what the verdict is.....

Just my 2cents...
Scott
"Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea."

2HOW

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1861
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Interesting article from Suarez
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2010, 02:53:43 PM »
So let me get this str8, you advise because of your "contractor" friend that "says' they run optics on their fighting pistols to do what? First of all I call bull shit on this. No one runs optics on fighting pistols. outside the realm of iron sites there are things called "rifles" . So unless I'm missing something ...............and besides as far as WT goes , I'm not drinking the cool aid.
AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk