Druids and Wiccans at the U.S. Air Force Academy

[Rastus]

FW wrote:

Do I remember...do I remember?  Jeesh... How could I forget?  Thanks Mikey Weinstein.

I was never a victim of Christian bully'ing while I was there.

So, I don't know what made the place so Bible thumper-ish in less than 10 years since I left there.     Weird.   

I would assume it was one of those stories that was "slightly" overblown at the time.  It's the way to handle all things foundational to America.  In fact, it's the way fascists/progressives have worked since the 1800's. 

One of my eldest son's best friends is in the AF Academy right now.   I'll have to see what kind of facts are really out there on this.  Lots of opinions here based upon MSM "facts".  Being a bit sarcastic, you would have thought that if it were as bad as reported on the news media about Bible thumping you would have noticed that, eh?  I'll go with your observation over the news media...today, tomorrow, anyday...etc.

[billt]

You have got to be kidding...Right? I mean you aren't really insinuating that any religion does not have blood on its hands... Are you?

In modern times Muslims have the most.

Here is a sampling of their Koran (Quran) in an English translation.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...terrorism.html

Quote:
# 3:151 "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve."

4:74 "Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

# 4:76 "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil."

# 4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."

# 8:12 "I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."

# 21:97 "Behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve!"

# 33:35-36 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers. ... He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.

# 59:2 "He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture who disbelieved to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!"

# 59:13 "Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah

And here is a site that is interesting: http://islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php   I'll go way out on a limb here and say I doubt you could find matching verses in the Bible. I regard any and all of these people as a threat. I challenge anyone to give evidence as to why we should trust, support, defend, anyone with beliefs like these. Where is the upside? These people are nuts.  Bill T.

[fightingquaker13]

I would assume it was one of those stories that was "slightly" overblown at the time.  It's the way to handle all things foundational to America.  In fact, it's the way fascists/progressives have worked since the 1800's.  

One of my eldest son's best friends is in the AF Academy right now.   I'll have to see what kind of facts are really out there on this.  Lots of opinions here based upon MSM "facts".  Being a bit sarcastic, you would have thought that if it were as bad as reported on the news media about Bible thumping you would have noticed that, eh?  I'll go with your observation over the news media...today, tomorrow, anyday...etc.

Rastus
As someone who has been there and seen that as a prof, let me tell you the truth. These things happen. They just take few bad apples in a department. They take about a semester and a half for a student or students to get brave enough to make a complaint. Then the faculty/admin tries to ignore it, a second complaint, or third or fifth happens, an "exhaustive" investigation is launched, eating up an additional 3-4 months and corrective action is taken. Time elapsed? About 18 months, thing is, that's half a student's college career. Bureacracy moves slowly. That's usually a good thing, but sometimes moving slowly is bad. Student culture can be shaped for a decade (right wing or PC, take your pick) by what happens in those 18 months.  I have no bone to pick with evangelicals or the Academy, its generally the PC crowd that is to blame, but its a whole lot quicker to make a mess than it is to clean it up, particularly when outside observers see it through a political lense. I'm not dinging you here over politics or theology. Its just  to say that the ideology is the least important thing in the picture. Its about a certain kind of unethical egotistical asshat that thinks its their right/misson to convert immpressionable students to take their POV. I detest these people. They are a blight on my profession as much as those who trade grades for sex. I also don't think too highly of those who cast aspersions on their opponents and make excuses for their allies. An asshat is an asshat, I don't care who you are. The correct solution is a free rail ride off campus, the long way around. My job is hard enough without Monday morning QBing from the activists. They can all KMA. If I'm wrong tell me why.
FQ13 Who wants profs to be honest about what they belive and why, but thinks that anyone who is so insecure that they need to create a coterie of 19 year old followers and punish those who disagree, needs to be introduced to some tar and feathers
PS to those who read an earlier version of this post, I missed a key line in rastus' post. I accused him of looking to non "MSM" sourcs, when he as going to talk to a cadet. My bad. Mea culpa Rastus.

[fightingquaker13]

In modern times Muslims have the most.

And here is a site that is interesting: http://islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php   I'll go way out on a limb here and say I doubt you could find matching verses in the Bible. I regard any and all of these people as a threat. I challenge anyone to give evidence as to why we should trust, support, defend, anyone with beliefs like these. Where is the upside? These people are nuts.  Bill T.

As to your first point, its no limb at all, you're playing Will E. Coyote. There are points in the Old Testament that call for genocide. The Ammalekites (sp)? Kill them all. The city of Jericho ditto. The book of Exodus is not full of fluffy bunnies. Thing is, we got over it. Them, not so much.
FQ13

[Tyler Durden]

@ FQ... just an FYI...

When I was serving my sentence at Mama Blue's Aluminum Womb, our instructors were captains and majors.  IIRC, a lot of them had PhD's.  I'm sure they all had to have had a master's, too.

I remember one female Captain who like had just pinned on Captain, so she was just four years out from the Academy.  She already had her Master's and PhD, at age 26 or 27 ...or so.  So they are some real fast burners who come back to teach.

There might be some civilians there, who teach, but probably just a handful.

All of the department heads were full bird colonels.  The Dean is a one star.

So, I am at a loss as to how this "Bible-gate" incident or incidents came to pass.   

I'm poking around and asking questions to my fellow grads in those year groups, so maybe then I could get the straight skinny from them.

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

@ FQ... just an FYI...

When I was serving my sentence at Mama Blue's Aluminum Womb, our instructors were captains and majors.  IIRC, a lot of them had PhD's.  I'm sure they all had to have had a master's, too.

I remember one female Captain who like had just pinned on Captain, so she was just four years out from the Academy.  She already had her Master's and PhD, at age 26 or 27 ...or so.  So they are some real fast burners who come back to teach.

There might be some civilians there, who teach, but probably just a handful.

All of the department heads were full bird colonels.  The Dean is a one star.

So, I am at a loss as to how this "Bible-gate" incident or incidents came to pass.   

I'm poking around and asking questions to my fellow grads in those year groups, so maybe then I could get the straight skinny from them.

I would love to hear it. Frankly, a miltary academy, particulary AF is a whole different beast than what I am used to dealing with, as its so science heavy. There are civvies, but generally in the social sciences. The culture differs too. One thing that stays the same, or maybe intensifies is a don't rock the boat mentallity. If you know its a two or four year post, you're less likely (I would think) to make a stand, than if you wanted to retire there. You know the place far better than me. I can only report on one liberal arts college and a couple of state universities, coupled with war stories over drinks with my friends. Even here, a lot of the wars were over methodology, not overt (though certainley covert) ideology. It effected who got hired, fired, promoted and which students were admitted and funded. Again. 2 years worth of WTF can take a decade to undo.
FQ13 Anything you have to offer would be useful.

[Tyler Durden]

Oh, yeah, as opposed to civilian schools, the Zoo did not have tenure.

I'm sure there was an underlying force there to get Captains and Majors back out to the real Air Force to do more "operational" work....versus having them there from junior captain to Lt.Col.

Consequently, the instructors weren't protected by tenure and could NOT take on this "I can do NO wrong" mentality and try to push an agenda.

[fightingquaker13]

Oh, yeah, as opposed to civilian schools, the Zoo did not have tenure.

I'm sure there was an underlying force there to get Captains and Majors back out to the real Air Force to do more "operational" work....versus having them there from junior captain to Lt.Col.

Consequently, the instructors weren't protected by tenure and could NOT take on this "I can do NO wrong" mentality and try to push an agenda.

Flip side of that is, they can't say "You're full of shit sir, get off the dime or I'm calling you on it".
FQ13

[billt]

There are points in the Old Testament that call for genocide.

And who follows it today? Forget thousands of years ago. Don't try and compare this to the Crusades, or the Inquisition. Show me one other "religion" TODAY that has suicide bombers, and uses them? What religion tells kids to go throw rocks at tanks. As I said, these people are nuts. Anyone who TODAY believes in that crap is a direct threat. The only resolve we have is to kill them, simply because that is the very thing they want to do to us. Every single one of us.  Bill T.

[jnevis]

As far as the original post:  
I don't mind it at all.  The military in general has always had religious leadership from multiple religions.  For example the Navy has seperate Chaplain Corps devices for Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim.  While I was on Independence a friend of mine was authorized by the command to lead Wiccan services using the ship's chapel and was seriously considering pursuing a commision in the Chaplain Corps as a Wiccan.  Yes, he could be a little "queer"/weird but was a good guy and more than happy to get into it if the need arose.  There were Jewish, Muslim and Christian religious programs/services and it was not a big deal to add the Wiccan service in.

I see the whole thing as a non-issue.  It has nothing to do with appeasement or being PC and all about the First Amendment and the fact that a few students of that religion took the time to ask the leadership for what amounts to a club (no matter what religion, it boils down to a group of like minded people, a club) and space to practice their beliefs

On the other hand the AF in recent years is it's own worst enemy.  Every major program has been in the news for fraud, waste, and abuse.  Then the regular reports of failures of leadership.  In general leadership, in all the Services, has declined and more officers are worried about budget and CYA then in fighting capability.  The Navy has fired at least a dozen Skippers and XOs in the last year.  Most were fired for fraternization or "lack of confidence in the ability to lead."  A cruiser Skipper was just fired for cruelty to the crew.


Tyler:  I'm sure that you had good instructors but I would be hard pressed to expect a lot of military bearing and leadership/operational experience from a O-4 four years out of Academy that spent at least half of that time back in school for a Masters.  Maybe that is the problem, more and more of the Service officers TEACHING people to become officers have lost sight of operational reality.  If that is the case the next few years should see marked improvement as more and more combat veterans become eligible to return to the Academies as instructors.  Even Navy OCS has started to withdraw the Marine DIs so OCS and Academy students are being taught how to be officers by other sudents one or two years ahead of them.  No real military experience and no undersatnding of how the military really works.  Same can be said for the Reserves in some cases.  I had a non-prior Service guy that was put in a leadership role because his civilian job was equievilant to a supply supervisor.  Even after a year of training, on the weekends and two weeks of "Boot Camp," this guy STILL called the XO (0-5) "Chief" (E-7) and could not follow simple directions.  Luckily he was popped on a drug sweep and left.