competition value in regard to training (Split from other thread)

[Tyler Durden]

Scott Bollard on the 2nd page wrote:

Hey Richard,

Why do you think the overall experience of competitive shooting was less than realistic?  Was it a lack of finality for a miss?  Lack of life or death stress?  Missing the immediate, personally felt through pain, feedback?

Did you find it stressful or fun?  In between?  Did you experience any of the effects of stress while competing?

Did you always have the thought in your mind that it was only a game?

Any input you may have will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Stay Safe,

I'm sorry but your questions one after another like that make me laugh.   

Are you writing a paper for school/college on stress and (combat) shooting?

Yes, shooting in a match can be stressful.  In some cases, there is a little bit of an adrenaline dump, and it is kinda like a rush.

So, yeah, it can be lots of fun too.

[fullautovalmet76]

I have never shot any matches, but if I were to equate what I've read here it would be the LSAT.  Its a test for law school but it isn't about law, but about the way you think.  The described scenario seems to be along the same lines.  It may not be a practical, but it tests how you will think tactically on the fly.

I think you hit the essence of it, Broso. I really get a chuckle from those who constantly criticize competitive shooting, specifically IDPA, for lacking realism. It has been my experience that most of them are people who go to square ranges and shoot at stationary targets. Maybe they lie on the ground sometimes or they will actually shoot with their support hand but they never go beyond that.

The truth of the matter to me is that IDPA, schools and instructors really can not provide something that adequately or completely prepares someone for that moment of truth, though they do their best to do so. My purpose for posting the topic on using the light was to get people to think about their own setup. From reading some of the posts here and in other forums, it's obvious some have it all figured out and that's good for them; I wish 'em luck. But I hope for the rest of us this helps in some small way. Heck, they might actually go outside at night and see if they can see their sights at 7 -10 yards. It might set something in motion but who knows...

[scott.ballard]

Scott Bollard on the 2nd page wrote:

I'm sorry but your questions one after another like that make me laugh.   

Are you writing a paper for school/college on stress and (combat) shooting?

Yes, shooting in a match can be stressful.  In some cases, there is a little bit of an adrenaline dump, and it is kinda like a rush.

So, yeah, it can be lots of fun too.

Hey Tyler,

I ask those questions to gain some insight into how people react to certain stress inducers. 

I'm a student in the context that I believe the learning never stops.  What I do now is train professional protective security personnel.  I am licensed, insured and certified to do what I do.  I do it because I like to teach.  I can teach because I have more than 25 years of experience doing the work.

I gave up competitive shooting long ago because I found the stress was not comparable to that of real life encounters.  I found it to be an amusing game.  Contrived and abundantly safe for obvious reasons, there was always a thought in the back of my head that there was no finality, no life or death, to the situation.  Therefore, no real stress.  This allowed me to be much more relaxed than I was in deadly force encounters.  It was fun for me, but nothing more.

The member I asked those questions was nice enough to spare some of his time to explain to me how he felt during competition.  He had far different experiences than others I have spoken to who were in the same or very similar circumstances.  I was able to gain valuable insight into how people's minds and bodies work during varying degrees of applied artificial stress.  Most importantly, he was mature enough to understand that there were no right or wrong answers, just his personal experience to share.  I admire and respect him for being willing to share something so personal.

I prefer to use FOF marking cartridges when training new team members.  They provide immediate and somewhat painful reminders that the student just did something which may have cost him his life.  I have had students lose bladder control during FOF marking cartridge evolutions.  Others complained about being extremely tired from the adrenaline dumps they experienced throughout the day.  I have not had a lot of feedback from shooters indicating they felt this level of stress during organized matches.  I feel that FOF marking cartridge training should be offered to civilians, but that is another thread.

Bottom line for me is that by asking those amusing questions, I learn.  By learning more I can become a better teacher.  Through that avenue, I just may teach someone something which may save a life.  I think it is worth the effort and I am truly grateful to those who are willing to share their experiences so that others may live.

If you haven't read it, I recommend On Combat, by Dave Grossman.

Stay Safe,

[ellis4538]

Tyler, I have had the opposite experience than you I guess because I have shot with individuals from any number of lettered (CIA, IRS...) agencies and military as well as local police departments match after match.  They even take what they did back to their TO or were the TO and modified their programs accordingly.  One of the things they commented about was and we pride ourselves in was SAFETY!  Also, letting them watch civies go at it was an eye opener for them because a lot of them have only dealt with BG's w/guns. 

Richard 

[Tyler Durden]

Scott wrote:

If you haven't read it, I recommend On Combat, by Dave Grossman.

He lives just down the street.

Yeah, seriously, he does.

I have both of his books.  He autographed them before he gave them to me at a steel match.

I have listened to some of his seminars or speeches on like a books on tape sorta thing while on the road to matches. 

I hate to admit this, but... I have yet to read them...yet.

It would be nice if I were able to get licensed, certified, and insured to teach.

Just for my own research purposes, one of these days I will have to wear a heart rate monitor when I shoot matches.  It would be interesting to see what my heart rate is like before a stage and then after.

This is sort of a thread drift...as far as the whole putting your life on the line thing....way back when, I free fall'ed out of a plane 5 times and earned my jump wings.  That was quite the rush too.  So was rappelling out of helicopters.

Oh, and for whatever it is worth to ya, I was a human factors major at a small engineering school in Colorado.  A lot of the HF world does revolve around how people deal with stress and/or focus...or rather NOT focus their attention on the task at hand.

[Sponsor]

[scott.ballard]

Hey Tyler,

It's worth quite a bit.  You have a better understanding of how the human element fits into  the grand scheme of things.  You can provide insights from a point of view others may not have considered just because you have that education and training.

Do you think that competition courses could safely create the same stress you felt on your first jump?  Did you ever feel the same level of stress in competition that you did during jump training?

Were they free fall as in HALO or static line as in jump school at Benning?  Do you think that the stress inoculation  you received on the 250 tower was a mitigating factor in the way you reacted at the door on your first jump?

The first time you fast roped was it as stressful as your first jump or were you "used" to it by then?

The stress experiences you describe are what I am talking about for SD encounters.  Most people do not get to feel that level of stress in their entire lifetime so myself, and a lot of instructors I know, try to quasi-inoculate them to it through conveyance of experience.  Both our own and from others.  Even the people who read this learn through others that they can function, work their plan, think and survive an armed encounter.  The confidence can go a long way to helping them successfully deal with the situation.  If nothing else, it just might make some one realize that they need better training.  Perhaps something based in a more realistic context with empirical data to support the effort.

That is awesome that you have access to Dave Grossman.  He is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the software side of the armed conflict. 

Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Stay Safe,

[Michael Bane]

If I may, it has been my experience from very high risk sports that low-level stress tends to "inoculate" the participant to the higher level Real World stresses. Indeed, nothing is like the Real World when the wheels start coming off, but your response can be modeled in lower stress, non-life-threatening situations. There's a lot of current learning theory that comes to the same conclusions, essentially that lessons learned under stress are retained differently by the brain them lessons learned not under stress.

Michael B

[scott.ballard]

If I may, it has been my experience from very high risk sports that low-level stress tends to "inoculate" the participant to the higher level Real World stresses. Indeed, nothing is like the Real World when the wheels start coming off, but your response can be modeled in lower stress, non-life-threatening situations. There's a lot of current learning theory that comes to the same conclusions, essentially that lessons learned under stress are retained differently by the brain them lessons learned not under stress.

Michael B

Thank you Michael.

You have been in both situations.  Does the stress you feel while competing come close to what you felt when you were forced to use your firearm, whether you discharged it or not, in a defensive situation?

Stay Safe,

[Tyler Durden]

To answer your questions Scott, one of the jump instructors there did tell me it was technically a HALO jump.  The airfield/DZ is at about 6,000 feet MSL, and IIRC, anything past 12,500 you are supposed to be on supplemental oxygen.  We never got that high.  Just high enough for 10 seconds of free fall.  Everything is graded and there were guys on the ground with very high speed cameras who video'ed your exit out of the aircraft, and kept video'ing until your parachute successfully opens.  Then there are guys who grade your PLF.  Then once you get back and get your chute all shaken out and hanging for the riggers to pack, then they show you your video of the exit out of the aircraft.  Then they grade that.  Then they show you your grade card for your PLF.

On my first jump, I actually instinctively went to "kicking and swimming" mode trying to grab anything to break my fall, then I flipped over on my back, then I thought "arch harder!", so I did, and I ended up in the proper position, facing earth, all the while keeping my count, and then pulled my "rip cord".

Nope, no 250 foot tower.  We just had a building with probably about a 50 foot ceiling where we were winched up next to the roof, and then practiced "opening shock" , going through the emergency procedure checklists, like so many odd broken lines or a "Mae West" and how to rake out the line groups out of the reserves, and then finally we dropped from...oh, I dunno, 6 feet off the ground or so, to do a PLF in the pea gravel.  We had done lots and lots of PLF's from wooden platforms of various heights into the pea gravel earlier in the week.

Nope, no fast roping.  This was back in the early 1990's at Air Assault school.  It was strictly ropes and rappelling back then.  Stepping out on the skid of a Huey was always kinda awkward and spookey feeling.

getting back more on topic now... the catch with any sort of training is that the student knows he is in training or at a match.  There is no element of surprise... there is NO moment like this ....       where you are trying to figure out just what the heck is going on before you decide how to react.  Ya, know...that whole OODA loop thing.

I'm sure that split second where you are like this  or like this  brings about its own level of adrenaline dump.

[Rastus]

...........The stress experiences you describe are what I am talking about for SD encounters.  Most people do not get to feel that level of stress in their entire lifetime so myself, and a lot of instructors I know, try to quasi-inoculate them to it through conveyance of experience.  Both our own and from others.  Even the people who read this learn through others that they can function, work their plan, think and survive an armed encounter.  The confidence can go a long way to helping them successfully deal with the situation.  If nothing else, it just might make some one realize that they need better training.  Perhaps something based in a more realistic context with empirical data to support the effort......................

OK...for what it's worth, I'm of the opinion that people who have felt no level of self-defense or other life threatening stress can benefit from both training and "fake" stress.  Training is tops.  When I worked the offshore platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, our company work force was highly trained and because of that training I am here today.  The untrained and poorly trained contract people ran...though they had no where to go but frigid January waters and death.....I stuck around and fixed the problem after an initial "surprise" when 3,000 psig of pressure let go and covered the platform in an explosive fog.  What is not measureable but of great value are all of the "stress events" I had diagnosing, repairing and replacing equipment when my hide was not on the line...that collectively contributed to and became a part of trainin.  I have had "umteem hundreds" of stress events to make deadlines, keep production online, to save money on damaged equipment, etc. which undoubtably helped me pull it together and get a clear mind when it counted.

I am saying training and stress are symbiotic.  They work well together and each draws upon the other.  Neither works as well alone as together.

Had I only mind knowledge without stress innoculation it is possible I would have cut and run screaming like a girl just like 15 other guys did or froze up (assessing the situation wondering what the heck I could do to live) like I did at age 15 or 16 on a beach in Grand Isle, La. when a snub nose .38 with a 2 inch wide barrel was pointed at my head. 

All of that to say I think for the population like me that is not a warrior, any competition complements their training.  Being in stressful situations that demand a quick answer not related to self defense are also of great, perhaps not quantifiable, help.  Not every stage and not to the same level in every person...but even if you are next to last and are trying to keep from being last spot on the list there is something beneficial to working through that situation.  A person will begin to critique himself, wonder what is going wrong, decide how better to shoot a stage, and, in general, do lots of things together to avoid the stress of coming in last...and that is a benefit to the lowest on the totem pole.

Have A Great Day,
Ken