Author Topic: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting  (Read 3866 times)

jnevis

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Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« on: August 13, 2010, 12:14:06 PM »
Wall Street Journal
August 13, 2010
Pg. 17

Awlaki Vs. Predator

American members of al Qaeda aren't merely criminal suspects. They're active enemy combatants who can be targeted like other terrorists.

By David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey

The American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) recently launched a legal challenge against the president's right to kill al Qaeda operatives. If the suit is successful, it will undermine the Constitution's separation of powers and make it virtually impossible for the United States to successfully defend itself with military force in the future.

Since 9/11, the courts have increasingly encroached on the legitimate war-making powers of both the president and Congress. Federal judges now scrutinize the president's determinations regarding the detention of enemy combatants and pre-approve wartime electronic intelligence-gathering operations. But the courts have not yet claimed the right to review the president's decisions regarding whom to attack, or how to carry out an attack. Such determinations are at the very core of the president's power as commander in chief.

Lawyers from the ACLU and the CCR are mounting their challenge on behalf of the father of Anwar al-Awlaki. Awlaki is an American citizen whom the government believes was connected both to al Qaeda's abortive effort to blow up an airliner over Detroit on Christmas Day, 2009, and to Nidal Malik Hasan, the U.S. Army major who murdered 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas, last November.

According to published reports, President Obama has authorized the use of Predator drones against Awlaki, who is believed to be based in Yemen. Because of this, the ACLU and the CCR will soon argue in court that Awlaki is a "civilian" located thousands of miles from the "battlefield" in Afghanistan and Iraq, and that he is entitled to due process before he can be attacked. "President Obama," said the executive director of the CCR, "is claiming the power to act as judge, jury and executioner while suspending any semblance of due process."

The president is doing no such thing. Like his predecessor, Mr. Obama is fighting a global war against al Qaeda and its allies, who remain determined to strike the U.S. wherever and whenever they can. The battlefield is not limited to Afghanistan or Iraq but may extend to anywhere al Qaeda and its co-belligerents operate, as has always been the case in wartime.

The laws of war permit attacks on the enemy—including on particular enemy combatants—at any time and anywhere they can be found. The limitations on such attacks are only that American forces must comply with the rules of distinction and proportionality (which protect civilians and their property) and respect the rights of neutral countries.

It is this respect for neutral rights that prevents U.S. forces from attacking al Qaeda in the streets of Europe or anywhere else in a country that objects. The ACLU and others who assert that the U.S. is demanding the right to send cruise missiles against men like Awlaki in Paris or Berlin are flat wrong.

Yemen is a different story. Al Qaeda has operated in Yemen at least since it attacked the USS Cole there in 2000, and the Yemeni government has since cooperated with the U.S. (to varying degrees of openness and effectiveness). U.S. forces operate in that country with its tacit approval and have carried out a number of strikes on al Qaeda, including a 2002 missile attack that killed an American citizen thought to be al Qaeda's liaison to the "Lackawanna cell" of American recruits in upstate New York.

That Awlaki is a U.S. citizen gives him no special immunity from attack. The Supreme Court recognized this more than 60 years ago in the "Nazi Saboteur" case, Ex parte Quirin (1941). The court noted then that "citizenship in the United States of an enemy belligerent does not relieve him from the consequences of belligerency."

One of those "consequences" is that Awlaki can be attacked and killed by U.S. forces without notice and without a Miranda warning. Al Qaeda operatives and their relatives can't use the fact that al Qaeda is a decentralized, irregular and unlawful military force to claim "civilian" status. Put another way, combatants do not become civilians (entitled to immunity from direct attack) by refusing to comply with the most basic laws of war, which require them to wear uniforms and carry their arms openly.

Giving judges a role in the targeting process would violate the separation of powers. The Constitution makes the president commander in chief. Whatever limitations exist on that authority regarding how captured terrorists are detained and tried, the Supreme Court has never suggested that decisions on actual combat operations—particularly when and how to attack the enemy—are anything other than discretionary for the president.

Bringing the courts into the targeting process whenever an American citizen is involved would put an even greater premium on al Qaeda's recruiting efforts in the U.S. If American al Qaeda operatives are entitled to a judicial process before they can be attacked, they become instant human shields for all those around them. This is true whether they are on a conventional battlefield in Afghanistan or engaged in shadowy conflict in Yemen.

This effort is one of the worst causes the ACLU has ever championed. It should be quickly and definitively rejected by the courts.

Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, Washington, D.C.-based attorneys, served in the Department of Justice during the Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.
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fightingquaker13

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 01:00:43 PM »
Gotta say, the ACLU is on crack here. Generally, I respect them for taking on unpopular causes. I don't always agree, but I generally think its worthwhile to have someone telling the government "No, you can't do that", whatever the that is. At least it makes the state explain itself and show Cnstitutional grounds for its actions. Here? Not so much.
Look I am totally behind the ACLU and a host of other groups (liberal and conservative alike) in going after the Patriot Act and insisting that the words "War on Terror" don't mean you can thow the Bill of Rights out the window when dealing with US citizens on US soil. There, I'm with them. But aliens and US citizens who have chosen to live elsewhere to commit treason? Not so much. The only thing worse than lawyers running military policy is a military playing CYA games in anticipation of what the lawyers might say. Screw that! You want Constitutional protection? Be a citizen and stay home. Otherwise you pays your money and you takes your chances.
FQ13

tombogan03884

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 01:13:21 PM »
This can not be argued until we have established just what these people are. If they are a loose collection of psychotic mass murderers, then they are criminals, they would be subject to civil law.
If they are members of a "Guerrilla movement" like the IRA or Viet Cong, then they are POW's and should be immune to legal proceedings, their treatment is spelled out clearly in the laws of land warfare.
If they are criminals then the ACLU is right, but Congress has been trying to have it both ways, Whacking them as "Enemy Combatant's, and then trying the survivors as "criminals".
Either way, one half of that policy makes the other half illegal.

r_w

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 03:44:43 PM »
This can not be argued until we have established just what these people are. If they are a loose collection of psychotic mass murderers, then they are criminals, they would be subject to civil law.
If they are members of a "Guerrilla movement" like the IRA or Viet Cong, then they are POW's and should be immune to legal proceedings, their treatment is spelled out clearly in the laws of land warfare.
If they are criminals then the ACLU is right, but Congress has been trying to have it both ways, Whacking them as "Enemy Combatant's, and then trying the survivors as "criminals".
Either way, one half of that policy makes the other half illegal.

Is posting on a board like this considered "loose collection" or a coordinated movement?

"Why are you carrying a pistol?  Expecting trouble?"

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Pecos Bill

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 03:56:22 PM »
I think you all are missing the point here. We don't run the country. The president doesn't run the country. The congress doesn't run the country. Our country is being run by and will continue to be run by capricious jurists who have their own agenda and will interpret the law any way they please. (See recent development in California.) Until we get off our dead butts and take the country back from the ruling elite (reference is hereby made to the Kingdom of Chicago) we are screwed.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." - Mark Twain

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #5 on: Today at 03:47:35 PM »

Hazcat

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 04:52:47 PM »
This can not be argued until we have established just what these people are. If they are a loose collection of psychotic mass murderers, then they are criminals, they would be subject to civil law.
If they are members of a "Guerrilla movement" like the IRA or Viet Cong, then they are POW's and should be immune to legal proceedings, their treatment is spelled out clearly in the laws of land warfare.

If they are criminals then the ACLU is right, but Congress has been trying to have it both ways, Whacking them as "Enemy Combatant's, and then trying the survivors as "criminals".
Either way, one half of that policy makes the other half illegal.

Are you talking about Al-Queda or the ACLU?
All tipoes and misspelings are copi-righted.  Pleeze do not reuse without ritten persimmons  :D

tombogan03884

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 07:51:46 PM »
Is posting on a board like this considered "loose collection" or a coordinated movement?

Consider who you are talking about here, we're all setting at our computers, so "Movement" isn't likely, for that matter, have you seen some of the pic of these guys ?  ;D
Coordinated is pretty iffy too  ;D


I think you all are missing the point here. We don't run the country. The president doesn't run the country. The congress doesn't run the country. Our country is being run by and will continue to be run by capricious jurists who have their own agenda and will interpret the law any way they please. (See recent development in California.) Until we get off our dead butts and take the country back from the ruling elite (reference is hereby made to the Kingdom of Chicago) we are screwed.

Judicial activism is a major problem. for one easy example, Flag burning is OK under the 1st A as "Freedom of expression".
BINGO, PROBLEM ! The 1st A  specifies  Speech, and Press, it is the UN "Declaration of Human rights" that uses the Phrase "Freedom of Expression".
Now, the PROBLEM is that they are doing exactly what a Judge is intended to do, judge the case based on the facts and the law.
But it is supposed to be "Local" law, not of other countries or coalitions. Our current situation was brought about by Judges who were influenced by socialism, and communism, and used their position to advance their own political agenda, intentionally forcing unpopular change.


Are you talking about Al-Queda or the ACLU?

Yes.  ;D

MikeBjerum

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 09:40:35 PM »
Tom - Fleet store has a sale on rope.  They are all out, but how many rain checks do you want me to pick up  ;D
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texcaliber

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 10:17:17 PM »
Gotta say, the ACLU is on crack here. Generally, I respect them for taking on unpopular causes. I don't always agree, but I generally think its worthwhile to have someone telling the government "No, you can't do that", whatever the that is. At least it makes the state explain itself and show Cnstitutional grounds for its actions. Here? Not so much.
Look I am totally behind the ACLU and a host of other groups (liberal and conservative alike) in going after the Patriot Act and insisting that the words "War on Terror" don't mean you can thow the Bill of Rights out the window when dealing with US citizens on US soil. There, I'm with them. But aliens and US citizens who have chosen to live elsewhere to commit treason? Not so much. The only thing worse than lawyers running military policy is a military playing CYA games in anticipation of what the lawyers might say. Screw that! You want Constitutional protection? Be a citizen and stay home. Otherwise you pays your money and you takes your chances.
FQ13

I 99.9% agree with FQ here, EXCEPT the on crack part. NO drugs just money.
The ACLU has always had or taken a slanted view with their attacks. Usually due to a race issues with enough digging it seems. They are just finding a new finical avenue now that BHO has stated the "mongrel" thing in public, which nullified race perverted legislation as profitable. I could be off, but not way-off.

tex
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fightingquaker13

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Re: Say WHAT!!?? ACLU vs Obama over Terrorist targeting
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 10:57:11 PM »
I 99.9% agree with FQ here, EXCEPT the on crack part. NO drugs just money.
The ACLU has always had or taken a slanted view with their attacks. Usually due to a race issues with enough digging it seems. They are just finding a new finical avenue now that BHO has stated the "mongrel" thing in public, which nullified race perverted legislation as profitable. I could be off, but not way-off.

tex
Ok, this a thread "diversion" not a hijacking, all "collateral damage" will be "euphemized' and "misremebered". ;D Serously? The reason the ACLU hits on race is because the SC only ever enforced the "equal protection clause" of the 14A which was designed to help blacks (and now every other "protected class") and not the "pivledges and immunities" clause which would protect everyone. The ACLU (and everyone else) argues in terms of race or other "priveledged classes" because they have to. Read the Slaughter House Cases (1883 I think?) which said "the police powers of the states do not fall under the privledges and immunities clause of the 14th ammendment" thus effectively rendering them a dead letter. Its just like the 9A. "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.". Sounds good, but to the best of my knowledge the Court has never overturned a single law or conviction on those grounds. If that changed, and the Slaughterhouse precedent was dropped, we could start talking about ikndividual, rather than group rights. Hell McDonald vs Chicago was decided partly on racial grounds. I'll take the win, but it irritates me it had to happen that way.
FQ13   

 

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