Author Topic: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th  (Read 5150 times)

twyacht

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It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« on: August 18, 2010, 05:59:58 PM »
Tell me that argument of No activist judges?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0818/Roadside-crosses-for-fallen-Utah-police-unconstitutional-court-rules

Roadside crosses for fallen Utah police unconstitutional, court rules

The 10th US Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Wednesday that 12-foot-high crosses honoring fallen members of the Utah Highway Patrol effectively endorse Christianity – and violate the separation of church and state – by going beyond the 'more humble spirit of small roadside crosses.'

By Warren Richey, Staff writer / August 18, 2010
Washington

A federal appeals court on Wednesday ruled that roadside crosses erected to memorialize fallen Utah Highway Patrol officers violate the First Amendment’s prohibition of government endorsement of religion.

The Denver-based 10th US Circuit Court of Appeals said that the 12-foot-high crosses bearing the name and badge number of deceased officers sent an unconstitutional religious message to motorists on the state’s highways.


“We hold that these memorials have the impermissible effect of conveying to the reasonable observer the message that the state prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion.
They therefore violate the establishment clause of the federal constitution,” the appeals court said in a 35-page decision.

Proponents of strict separation between church and state immediately praised the decision.

“This is an important victory,” said David Niose, president of the American Humanist Association. “Governmental endorsement of Christianity, even in the form of an officer’s memorial, isn’t appropriate on our public highways.”


He added, “There are other ways to honor fallen officers, and the court’s recognition of this certainly strengthens secular government.”
13 crosses on Utah highways

Since 1998, two members of the Utah Highway Patrol Association have organized the placement of monuments on Utah roadsides to honor fallen troopers. Before erecting each memorial, the group consults the family of the fallen trooper about the potential of erecting a memorial in the form of a large cross. No family has objected to the cross or requested a different symbol.

Currently, 13 crosses are displayed along Utah highways. They include a photo of the fallen trooper, the year of death, and biographical information. They also display the insignia of the highway patrol.

American Atheists, Inc., objected to the crosses being displayed on public land and sued to have them removed.

A federal judge threw the lawsuit out. On Wednesday, the appeals court reversed that decision, agreeing with the atheist group that the crosses violate the separation of church and state.


Supporters of the cross memorials argued that they are no different than the crosses in military cemeteries or those used in other roadside memorials marking the site of traffic fatalities.

The appeals court judges disagreed. They said the critical issue was how the large white crosses on public land would be perceived by motorists and others. “We conclude that the cross memorials would convey to a reasonable observer that the state of Utah is endorsing Christianity,” they said. “The memorials use the preeminent symbol of Christianity.”
Qualms over crosses' 'massive size'

While most roadside memorials marking traffic fatalities are 12 to 16 inches high, the troopers’ crosses are 10 times that size, the court said. “The massive size of the crosses displayed on … public property unmistakably conveys a message of endorsement, proselytization, and aggrandizement of religion that is far different from the more humble spirit of small roadside crosses,” the court said.

The judges said they were also concerned that the memorials included the insignia of the Utah Highway Patrol. They said the combination of the cross and insignia links the state with a particular religious symbol. And that, they said, “may lead the reasonable observer to fear that Christians are likely to receive preferential treatment from the UHP – both in their hiring practices and, more generally, in the treatment that people may expect to receive on Utah’s highways.”

The judges added: “The reasonable observer’s fear of unequal treatment would likely be compounded by the fact that these memorials carry the same symbol that appears on UHP patrol vehicles.”

The decision notes that most residents of Utah were raised as or are followers of the Mormon religion, which does not view the cross as a religious symbol. The judges noted that “cross-revering Christians comprise approximately 18 percent of the population of Utah.”

But they went on to stress that the state could still violate the establishment clause by promoting the cross and the religious groups that do revere it.

*****

Simply unreal.... >:(
Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

fightingquaker13

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 06:17:00 PM »
Unreal? A 12 foot high cross? C'mon there are other ways to do this. You have to admit that this was pushing it.
FQ13

twyacht

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 06:39:19 PM »
Unreal? A 12 foot high cross? C'mon there are other ways to do this. You have to admit that this was pushing it.
FQ13

Who's really offended FQ? The 1/10 of 1% American Athiests?

Our gov't and courts are not following the "will of the people", time and time again, issue after issue, Nativity Scenes on Town Hall properties, etc,...et,...al...

Would those crosses make your first thought be, "Tragic loss of Troopers, God Bless Them & Their Families for their sacrifice"?

OR

How dare they put up a cross that "big" on a highway? Geez, I am so offended....I need counseling...

C'mon FQ, I thought you'd be smarter than that.

Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

fightingquaker13

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2010, 07:25:03 PM »
Who's really offended FQ? The 1/10 of 1% American Athiests?

Our gov't and courts are not following the "will of the people", time and time again, issue after issue, Nativity Scenes on Town Hall properties, etc,...et,...al...

Would those crosses make your first thought be, "Tragic loss of Troopers, God Bless Them & Their Families for their sacrifice"?

OR

How dare they put up a cross that "big" on a highway? Geez, I am so offended....I need counseling...

C'mon FQ, I thought you'd be smarter than that.


Not the point. Its not about you vs the easily offended (although you seem to be easily offended here). Its about the fact that government should not be endorsing any religion. Hell, would a jewish trooper want a 12 foot cross? What about one who never saw a church outside of a funeral or wedding? It isn't even about them.  We  shouldn't be doing this, the Constitution says so in the Establishment Clause and we all agree with that principle, "no official religion".  We seem to agree that religion should be a private matter and no business of the government, pro or con. All of us that is, except for some right wing fundamentalist yahoos who seem to be unsatisified if we don't publically declare this a Christian nation. Funny thing is, most of them don't think the Mormons erecting those crosses really are Christians. They'll back them in this fight, but still think they're going to hell. ::)
FQ13
PS The easily offended Atheists who have a coniption fit at a gradution prayer or the pledge also fit the yahoo category. I'm an equal opportunity basher here. Basically, keep the government out of religion, but don't have a hernia about a creche or a baccalaureate either.

Solus

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 07:38:39 PM »
Seems to me if they are planning on erecting a similar monument to fallen officers of faiths other than Christian using the symbol of that faith, they are not favoring one religion over another....and I am a strong supporter of the separation of church and state.

The article said the families were consulted and none objected to the cross, but it left a feeling that there may have been an officer of a non-Christian faith.   If the family was not offered the substitution of that religion's symbol for the cross, there may be concern.  The family may have been picking the only monument that was available to honor their fallen family member.



Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #5 on: Today at 03:47:42 PM »

twyacht

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 08:05:47 PM »
Somehow FQ for all your brilliant analysis, what part of "In God We Trust" keeps leaving your cerebral matter. This country, was "endowed By It's Creator" , what part of that do you miss? Not for the mamby-pamby whiners, but for those that actually sacrificed.

The PC has reached terminal velocity. How many Founding Documents do I have to quote a "Divine Influence"???

This countries panties get in a wad over things our Grandparents would have backhanded us for.

The 10th Circuit, and other activist "revisionist" judicial activists, seem to keep missing that.

Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

tombogan03884

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2010, 08:23:30 PM »
Read the whole thread, Solus is right, 12 feet might be a bit large, ...

twyacht

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2010, 08:36:41 PM »
Read the whole thread, Solus is right, 12 feet might be a bit large, ...

Get Over It....

Would a 12 ft. Cross be "too big" for a dead soldier? Perhaps 8'6" should be remanded  to Congressional Review for maximum allowance for roadside allotment for the "fallen"

Sound like B.S. yet?
Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

tombogan03884

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2010, 08:42:26 PM »
Actually, yes I think 12 feet might be to much for any Memorial,
That's almost as tall as an overpass, seems a bit much.
How tall are the crosses at Arlington ?
Agree about the Court decision being BS.

twyacht

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Re: It's Not Just The 9th Circuit Court, It's Also The 10th
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2010, 08:51:45 PM »
Circumsizing the size of a monument/tribute based on an individual States tribute to Highway Patrol Officers that have died in the line of duty, is B.S.

If I want to pay tribute to a fallen soldier, LEO, Veteran, freakin Elvis, who's to say,...."That's too big, it might offend someone"

Please. Our Grandfather's would have slapped us by now.

Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

 

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