I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[MikeBjerum]

Quote from: bloodfarts on Today at 03:50:07 pm

Double tap? <snip>  How can you go into an active shooter situation thinking in advance " I have to shoot everything two times."

We don't teach "double tap."  We teach shoot till they drop!  May be two, three, four, ...  We also don't teach counting shots.  I have been trying to find the research papers, but I think I have lost them.  The papers dealt with the idea of only so many shots on the bad guy.  Some instructors teach two to the chest and one to the head, some teach "zip 'em up."  The research gave stats from post shooting interviews, and it was found that officers did not have accurate counts of rounds they had fired.  Most underestimated.  Some so bad they said one or two shots while standing with an empty firearm!  If I find it I will post it

The value I see in "competition" is practice.  It is more than trigger time.  It is about the reaction to a sound, draw, target recognition, target picture, sight alignment, trigger control and safety.  I don't value "gaming" in the self defense arena, but the concepts Jeff Cooper was attempting when he developed El Presidente are still valid in my mind.

[tombogan03884]

This is something Rob goes into in some of his training video's that I have seen.
I wont try to repeat what I remember because he will do it better first hand when he weighs in.

[jaybet]

I have never had the time or money to shoot as much as I would like to be able to comment on the effectiveness of different sports on your gun handling skills. I DO, however, agree with Tom 100% that the hands are quicker than the mind.

From playing guitar I know that for most people they can't possibly play enough to develop good muscle memory. There are always exceptions, but the only reason I have developed the ability to play at a modestly high level is because I play SO MUCH. Practicing an hour a day is ok, but playing for keeps for three or four hours or for three hour long sets two or three nights in a row, week after week after week...that's when you start doing things without thinking about them, and it's when it starts flowing from somewhere other than your concious thought.  I also know that when I lay off for awhile, like now, that muscle memory fades quickly. It comes back quicker, but it fades fast.

Time spent practicing and competing in gun sports is the same thing...it will give you some muscle memory skills in the mechanics that could save your life. even if the activity itself is not true to life. That's why I also agree with bloodfarts that unloading right after the last shot is a bad habit to get into. That could LOSE your life for you some day.

[Rastus]

We don't teach "double tap."  We teach shoot till they drop!  May be two, three, four, ...  We also don't teach counting shots.  ...........

For me, so long as there is a threat there is no reason to not continue to fire. 

Secondly, my rant, I have to live to get to the interrogation of the courts...stopping short may exclude me from the judicial playground.  I say that not because of anything from BF, but because so many people are afraid to "break the law" they'll let themselves be ground up and killed.

[bbbean]

bbbean- If you can just tell me where you got your statistic for your below comment?  "The majority of the top USPSA shooters work as trainers for military, law enforcement, and private security firms." 

That's an observation, not a statistic. I took it from noting that Rob Leatham, Bob Vogel, Todd Jarret, Manny Bragg, Max Michel, Thomas Tomasie, Jerry Miculek, KC Eusebio, JJ Recaza, Rodney May, Phil Strader, et al (just to pull a few names off the top of my head) are training military/LEO/security personnel, are military/LEO/security personnel, and/or are former military/LEO/security personnel.  I also note that USAMU personnel spend a substantial portion of their year in competition and that there are a number of LEAs with teams and sponsored shooters active at the national level in USPSA.

If you're really interested in this issue, you might spend some time at brianenos.com - the primary forum for competitive shooters that is also well populated with military/LEO/security personnel who are active competitors and/or trainers.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

What you say is only valid if you consider WHAT they are  training/practicing, is it Movement etc, or just putting rounds on target.

It gets back to what some one else posted, Cowboys invented rodeo as a sport, but it sure as heck wasn't what they did in their day jobs.

[Rob Pincus]

That rodeo comparison is pretty cool... never heard it before and it is pretty spot on. Why the hell would you jump on a crazy distracted pissed off bull and try to ride it for 8 seconds.. THAT NEVER HAPPENS in the real world.

The problem is, no one goes and does that and THEN goes home to their house and thinks that in a moment of needing to protect their families from a pissed off bull that they will jump on its back and hold on the 8 seconds and the whole world will be fine again. THAT is EXACTLY what some people think they are getting out of gun games: Preparation for defensive use of a firearm. I disagree. Strongly.

Some points:


- anyone who thinks that competition is "on demand" in the sense of counter ambush response and TRULY needing to respond on demand when you aren't expecting it needs to study the brain a little more. See my quote in BF's first post.. if you know what you are going to do when the buzzer goes off (and you know that the buzzer is about to go off!) you are not really being tested at anywhere near a one to one level with your ability when you are caught off guard. That can create false confidence.

-habits formed during competition that is invalid in defense shooting (such as the IDPA two shot per target stuff or the Steel challenge one shot & swing stuff) makes you LESS capable of appropriate efficient defense because it conditions you to do something that isn't optimum. You are better off not training any habit in regard to the number of shots you are going to take.

-What people on a competition forum say about defensive shooting might not be as valuable as what people on a defensive training forum say about defensive shooting. I'm not going to go check in at www.frenchchef.com's forum and ask them about what inside the waistband holster they recommend.

-Welcome to the forum BF... please reconsider your codename and the way it reflects on the value of your opinions to the rest of the world.

-RJP

[bbbean]

-What people on a competition forum say about defensive shooting might not be as valuable as what people on a defensive training forum say about defensive shooting. I'm not going to go check in at www.frenchchef.com's forum and ask them about what inside the waistband holster they recommend.

Of course, if the conversation was specifically about French chefs who have had real world experience with IWB holters, it might be worth your while to check out www.frenchchef.com. This might be especially true of someone seemed unaware that there was a heavy overlap between French chefs and IWB holster users.

     

[Rob Pincus]

No, BBbean, you'r missing the point... granted, I left the door wide open.

I'll use more specific examples.

--If you wanted to know how to Bake the best bread in the world and you went to a site that focused on Roasts just because they both use Ovens, you'd be wrong. 

--If you went to a site about driving race cars and asked them about parallel parking, you'd be wrong. Again, just because they use the same tool doesn't mean that there is a lot of overlapping knowledge.

Now I close the next loophole before someone jumps through it:

--If you go to someone who EATS bread really well to find out how to make break, again, you'd be wrong.

--If you go to a guy who builds cars really well to find out how to parallel park, yet again, you'd be wrong.

******

People become experts and specialists in certain areas for a reason. The world needs people who build cars, people who make ovens, people who eat bread, people who bake bread and people who make great roasts..... but they may not all be the same person.

-RJP

[fightingquaker13]

Look, let me try to help Rob AND bloodfart out here. Think of it like hunting and skeet or trap or sporting clays. None of these three games will ever approximate hunting. BUT.....what better practice are you going to get in the off season?  If you view them as games and use a $2000 30" single shot for trap or change choke tubes like an Indy pit crew on speed at Clays or wait till your gun is mounted on your shoulder to call "Pull!" at skeet you'll score well. If, on the other hand, you shoot with your regular gun and hold it at the hip and have the guy pull the targets when he's ready, not you, you get valuable practice. You won't score as well though. Not the same as the real deal, but what is? Just saying that people play gun games for different reasons. Some to practice, some to have a good time playing a game. As long as ity makes you happy and you play safe? I say good for you. There is no "right" answer here. Its whatever floats your boat. Just my .02.
FQ13