I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[MikeBjerum]

From a legal Monday morning quarterback situation, in my opinion, it would look really, really bad to be inside a house and shoot somebody through a window who was out in the yard. 

In our little white corner of the world the Castle Doctrine would come into play.  Key items of defense would be "The Reasonable Man" and "Fear For Life."  It would also be a good time to not get flagged for an illegal block in the back - and NFL comparison for making sure that he is attacking you and not running away.

Lots of illustrations to give, but I don't want anything I post here to come back as evidence if I every need to protect my life.

[tombogan03884]

Yes Tyler, NOW I see the point you are going for.
, I've never shot IDPA etc so I don't know the rules, my training was also military and focused on the Rifle, but we were instructed to keep the entire weapon inside the building as an aid to concealment, a barrel sticking out the window is sort of like a big neon sign saying "Shoot here", we were also taught to bust a hole through the wall and shoot through that since windows and door are the first places an opponent will look when he starts taking fire.
Probably not really acceptable for civilian applications though. 

[Tyler Durden]

I agree with you that the situation can change in a blink of an eye.

so, yeah, there is no one guaranteed way to get inside a bad guy's OODA loop.

by the way, do any of these shooting schools teach anything about the OODA loop?

anywhoooo....still interested in hearing about GOOD tactics???

[rat31465]

I can see where the originator of this thread may have a valid point...Back in the late 80's a friend of mine who was a reserve county deputy as well as a CCW permit holder use to compete heavily in local IPSC matches here in my area.  
This is a story as relayed to me by my friend of an event which happened to him.

While on a visit to the Kansas City area he found himself in a very compromised scenario at a local conveinence store.
  He went into the store to pick up soda's and snacks and while at one of the refrigerated cases he heard a commotion in the front...he walked towards the register and observed two young guys who were threatening the clerk.
One of the men turned and faced him and told him he needed to mind his own buisness and walked closer to him and reached out to grab him.
He said that the guy stopped short of grabbing him and instead just stood there looking at him with a strange look on his face.
My buddy said that he didn't remember doing so, but he had laid down the item he had picked up and had squared off with the would be robbers and assumed an IPSC ready stance...Both the individuals backed up and exited the store without taking anything.
He never spoke to these guys and actually never uncovered or drew his handgun but believes that his strange actions are what scared these guys off.
Repitition and practice create muscle memory, and under stress the body tends to react in the manner in which we have trained the most for...thats why I believe that reacting to a timers beep such as in IPSC is inherently a bad idea for anyone considering self defense training.  I have often wondered since....If a sound or noise similiar to a PACT timers buzzer had went off I wonder if my buddy would have went into his draw?
IPSC, IDPA etc are great sports but other than teaching marksmanship and movement have litle other value in self defense training.

[bbbean]

I have often wondered since....If a sound or noise similiar to a PACT timers buzzer had went off I wonder if my buddy would have went into his draw?

Did he find himself drawing when other competitors were on the line? Did he find himself drawing at basketball games or in traffic jams? Can he watch Youtube videos or Shooting Gallery without drawing at the screen?  If not, is it conceivable that he learned a context-sensitive skill?

IPSC, IDPA etc are great sports but other than teaching marksmanship and movement have litle other value in self defense training.

That's a bit like saying running and weightlifting do a lot to improve your speed, strength, and endurance, but they have little other value in athletic training.

[Sponsor]

[rat31465]

Did he find himself drawing when other competitors were on the line? Did he find himself drawing at basketball games or in traffic jams? Can he watch Youtube videos or Shooting Gallery without drawing at the screen?  If not, is it conceivable that he learned a context-sensitive skill?
No, but my point is that my friend who  had Law Enforcement Training when placed in a actual stressful life or death scenario... reverted to an IPSC ready position instead of his Law Enforcement training...that is a training problem.

That's a bit like saying running and weightlifting do a lot to improve your speed, strength, and endurance, but they have little other value in athletic training.  Competitive Shooting skills are exactly that...Sports Shooting Skills where no one is shooting back placing life and limb in danger.  Other than providing trigger time there is little usefullnes for it and is not an acceptable substitute to Professional Self Defense Training.

[ratcatcher55]

I agree with you that the situation can change in a blink of an eye.

so, yeah, there is no one guaranteed way to get inside a bad guy's OODA loop.

by the way, do any of these shooting schools teach anything about the OODA loop?

anywhoooo....still interested in hearing about GOOD tactics???

Sorry this a bit late.

Yes all good shooting instructors teach some tactics.

#1 Move off the X. Don't stand there, move to cover as you are drawing your weapon.
 
I would say sticking a firearm past cover is a bad tactic. In force on force training my hands got shot almost every time.
I can clear a malfunction, my shot hand is going to be more of a problem.

John Farnam was the first instructor I heard talk about  OODA in 1998. Many others do now and I can't say John was the first to teach it. John is who I compare every instructor to.

[tombogan03884]

I have also heard "OODA Loop" discussed by Richard Marcinko (Red Cell  etc. ) Most of his books are shoot'em up action novels, with lots of "Hard azz BS" but his actual consulting business, ( and the book "The Real Team") is focused on management training and Leadership development.

[bbbean]

OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting.

Oddly enough, I've taken two self defense/tactical pistol classes, and you know what skills they taught? The same skills I put to use in every match I shoot (see the list above for a sample). At the Chapman School, we did spend 10-15% of our time shooting from behind barricades, but then we shoot around barricades in competition, too.

FWIW, I've never seen anyone argue that USPSA/IPSC/IDPA/Steel Challenge/NRA Action Pistol/Bullseye/whatever discipline you prefer is a total and complete SD training solution. By the same token, the SD/Tactical instructors I've worked with made it clear that they didn't consider their training to be a 100% training solution. They seemed to think that regular practice and even <gasp> competitive shooting would be useful ways to maintain and improve our skills.

[rat31465]

bbbean,
Sorry buddy, I didn't mean to piss on your parade.  I use to shoot IPSC and some PPC matches myself and it wasn't my intention to knock down the sport or any of it's shooters.

Keep this in mind too....back in the time, the late 1980's, when this incident happened to my buddy... IPSC courses of fire didn't involve much in the way of shooting on the move, or even shooting from cover...and when I was shooting matches here locally...was actually discouraged.    This has since been identified by many high level competitive shooters as a need and implemented later on in matches.

I simply identified a very bad habit that my Buddy had fallen in to and when the real SHTF for him....he reverted back to the training he knew best. In this case instead of reacting and moving to cover while drawing his CCW... he squared off with a Bad Guy in a very real Life and Death scenario like he was the Sheriff of Dodge City going up against some bad old Cowboy in a Movie Western.  
Bad Tactics, Bad Judgement and by his own admission....all due to a failure in his LEO training and time spent on the IPSC range.

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=15025.0;topicseen

If these guys had been armed chances are they would have already had their firearms in hand and at the ready. I don't care how fast you are, even if you are Bob Munden fast...you can't outdraw someone who already has a gun in their hand especially since his pistol was in a CCW holster under clothing and inside deep cover.

I'm not arguing that Competitive shooting doesn't help hone shooting skills and keep one sharp....I am saying that the repetition of competitive shooting builds unsafe Muscle Memory and that as in the case of my buddy...if you find yourself under a similiar situation of life and death.  You don't want to depend on a skill set that you learned strictly on a competitive shooting course to get you home alive.