I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[tombogan03884]

OK. You've convinced me. Competitive shooting only improves trigger control, indexing, accuracy, safe weapon handling, target acquisition, transitions, recoil control, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, shooting in different positions, drawing from a holster, shooting one handed, shooting targets of varying size, difficulty, and distance, and doing those things under the pressure of the clock. Clearly those are skills that are of little importance in self defense or tactical shooting.

Oddly enough, I've taken two self defense/tactical pistol classes, and you know what skills they taught? The same skills I put to use in every match I shoot (see the list above for a sample). At the Chapman School, we did spend 10-15% of our time shooting from behind barricades, but then we shoot around barricades in competition, too.

FWIW, I've never seen anyone argue that USPSA/IPSC/IDPA/Steel Challenge/NRA Action Pistol/Bullseye/whatever discipline you prefer is a total and complete SD training solution. By the same token, the SD/Tactical instructors I've worked with made it clear that they didn't consider their training to be a 100% training solution. They seemed to think that regular practice and even <gasp> competitive shooting would be useful ways to maintain and improve our skills.

Right, other than that it's useless  

Seriously, I understand what Rat is getting at. We had a saying in the military, "You fight like you train". So the benefits of of the sports are lost if they are not coupled with an SD focused training regimen that puts it all into context.

[cookie62]

Let me try to summerize, games are good for some training, but you need to also get self defense training and practice that to keep your mindset while in a SD encounter.

[Tyler Durden]

cookie wrote:

Let me try to summerize, games are good for some training, but you need to also get self defense training and practice that to keep your mindset while in a SD encounter.

pardon my slight thread drift here...way back when, as a kid I read Elenoar (sp?) Roosevelt's biography.  At some point in the book, the author tried to distinguish between the snootey stuck up "Rue-sa-velts" and the more down to earth common man "Rosa-velts".

It's like splitting hairs...there is TRAINING which IMO implies paying an instructor and being coached on certain things in order to improve.

And to me, there is practice.  Shooting matches and/or practicing at the range is NOT training.  Would all those things listed in red in Mr. Bean's post help in a gunfight?

Yeah, I am thinking so, but I might be so bold to speak for Mr. Bean and myself, we don't necessarily think of it as Training (with a capital T).

And I will go so far as to say that us two are definitely not saying that IDPA and/or USPSA are substitutes for self-defense shooting training.  We aren't recommending that at all.

Are we saying it is good practice?  HELL YEAH!

I think there is a communication "disconnect" between you guys....you "tactibilly's" and us "gamers". 

We are transmitting that IDPA and USPSA will make you both fast and accurate and safer ...in short, proficient.  But you guys receive that signal and through whatever filters you all have in place interpret it as, "Those guys think that IDPA annd USPSA are good Training"  (again with the capital T).

as far as the other thread goes, sorry for the cross-posting, but that hunter-shooter guy with just 2 posts total to his credit summed it up nicely.    go back and click on ratcatcher's link to that other thread..

as far as Marshall's post goes, about the draw stroke, there is nothing in either the USPSA or IDPA rulebook that keeps a competitor from drawing in a nonstandard way....from retention keeping your elbow pinned to your side.  As long as you're safe and don't breadk the 180 degree rule, you'll be good.  There is nothing either that says you must shoot steel challenge type stages with a $3000 open, red dot sighted racegun.  There is a guy who shoots with us from time to time and uses a $400 Glcok from inside the waist band tucked under a Hawaiian print shirt, and he is rather good at it too.

If you want to use IDPA/USPSA/steel as Training, be my guest.  I ain't gonna stop ya.

[Tyler Durden]

let me just speculate here...and kinda put on my tinfoil hat....

Could it be that the guys who say "IDPA isn't training" or "that USPSA stuff will get you killed" are the same people who are out to make money by teaching you Training classes?

They don't want you to get better via IDPA and USPSA because then you won't have a "need" for their classes.

They won't be able to make money off of you, basically.

Hmmn....just sayin'

as far as Marshall's post about the draw...well...I do need to actually watch the video, but my first gut instinct reaction was whatever happened to the Tueller drill/21 feet rule?

I'm sure somebody more eloquently than I put it down into words in some self-defense book that ya gotta have some sorta rings or zones from you, that based upon a person's distance to you and their mannerisms/body language that it trips your "identification friend or foe" mechanism into full on "FOE!" mode.

[fullautovalmet76]

At the USPSA match yesterday (2/5/2011) we had two high-speed/low-drag types there. They were equipped with their thigh rigs and the whole bit. They asked me about a stage and told me they were new. I attempted to explain some of the basic stuff that'll get one DQ'd in a USPSA match and they informed me they were very experienced with guns, as they were military/LEO. I stopped and let them go on.

I thought maybe these guys are really good, but somehow I didn't think that was going to be the case. In short they could not reliably hit  full size metric USPSA targets at less than 10-15 yards!  They were shooting Beretta 92s so it wasn't the gun they were using.....So all of these LEO/gun store commandos that post here to run down competition shooting can just STFU now.....

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

At the USPSA match yesterday (2/5/2011) we had two high-speed/low-drag types there. They were equipped with their thigh rigs and the whole bit. They asked me about a stage and told me they were new. I attempted to explain some of the basic stuff that'll get one DQ'd in a USPSA match and they informed me they were very experienced with guns, as they were military/LEO. I stopped and let them go on.

I thought maybe these guys are really good, but somehow I didn't think that was going to be the case. In short they could not reliably hit  full size metric USPSA targets at less than 10-15 yards!  They were shooting Beretta 92s so it wasn't the gun they were using.....So all of these LEO/gun store commandos that post here to run down competition shooting can just STFU now.....

Oh yes oh great all knowing one.
Of course there is no possible way they were just piss poor shots.
Your blow hard attitude prevents you from comprehending that if it was "cut and dried" it would not be a debate.
Dumbass

[fullautovalmet76]

Oh yes oh great all knowing one.
Of course there is no possible way they were just piss poor shots.
Your blow hard attitude prevents you from comprehending that if it was "cut and dried" it would not be a debate.
Dumbass

You would be the one to call me out for being a know-it-all, Tom. That in itself is funny.  

About your quote above, I have not personally attacked you, Tom. I changed what I wrote here earlier because I just didn't like what I wrote  ; I know I can do better than that.

So that comment above must be your new signature you use to sign all of your posts- nice!  

[ratcatcher55]

My $0.02

IDPA  can be some form of practice.

It is not and never will be training.

Full Auto, badges , uniforms and gear do not make decent shots.  Most folks who are serious competition shooters will out shoot 90% of LEO and the military. That does not mean they would last very long in a gun fight.
I out shoot a couple of guys from 5th SF and the 101st every month but they would kill me very dead in a real life gun battle.
They too complain about how few shooters there are in their units and how little firearms practice they get alotted in a year.

[MikeBjerum]

Having had much experience with law enforcement at several levels of education and competition I will say there is more than one type out there, but one side ruins it for all!

I now 

[fullautovalmet76]

Having had much experience with law enforcement at several levels of education and competition I will say there is more than one type out there, but one side ruins it for all!

I now  

M58,
I know you said you didn't want to comment further so I'll just post here to say I have seen some LEO come out who were very, very good and did NOT have the attitude these had.

I remember I was at Rogers shooting school and was talking to "Super" Dave Harrington (former Delta Op.) and asked him about all of this and his answer was that it was all good (he shoots IDPA/USPSA) and we just needed to be able to practice in both contexts; made sense to me.