I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[Timothy]

I said my peace here but will add this.  I'm ex-Navy, most of our training was based on "How NOT to sink the boat and how to NOT drown if you did!".  Clearly, I've no PD training and my "self defense" training is limited.  I, like others here have had people try and stab me, club me or otherwise try to do me harm physically.  I've managed to come out on top, every time without any "specialized" training but by instinct, avoidance and intuition.

My "don't f..k with me" range has increased as I got older and slower but my instincts and intuition haven't changed.  I haven't been able to have a sidearm for nearly six months.  Do I feel more vulnerable?  Surely!  But, I've increased my range even further and practiced more with a blade than I ever have.

Keeping all things in perspective, shooting improves skills, drawing a weapon (insert type here), improves skills, staying alert and intuitive are ingrained in our survival instincts.  Remember, any amount of shooting, training and improvement in our regimen is, more than likely, far greater than the gangbanger, dirtbag perpetrator that we may be dealing with.  His, or her advantage is they know WHEN they're gonna attack, we must be prepared regardless.

[Steven Cline]

can somebody here tell me just one tactic to employ in a gunfight?

Uh, I try to give more than one.  I only a little time in the Army, just a little time in LE, only a little.  I'm not a hardcore life taker and heart-breaker.

So here goes...


Shoot faster and more accurately than the guy shooting at you (wanting/threatening to shoot at you)?  

Draw faster?

If you shoot empty, reload faster?

While moving?  

When he might be moving?

Or popping out from behind a wall or something (like swingers do or may be a drop turner)?

Before he grabs a hostage (like a clam-shell target) or at that time when the hostage ducks for a moment giving you a clear(er) shot (like a Maxx-Trap)?

Maybe those things the USPSA guys do at most every match...

I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce.  Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time.

[Steven Cline]

I forgot to observe how real USPSA shooters aren't simply firing two shots- their firing two shots for that A zone and being open to the information they saw from the sights as to how accurate those shots were.  They make up errant shots.  They drive steel to the ground when they intentionally shoot until the steel falls. 

There is so much variety to the USPSA match that few training scars can be produced.  The shooter is constantly challenged to think and choose and act... uh, to some that would be Observe, Orient, Decide and Act.

I'll take the thousands of dollars I could spend at some guys shooting class (some guy I could likely out shoot anyways) and invest it in reloading supplies.  The tens of thousands of rounds or practice and competition will do me better in my opinion.

[tombogan03884]

Uh, I try to give more than one.  I only a little time in the Army, just a little time in LE, only a little.  I'm not a hardcore life taker and heart-breaker.

So here goes...


Shoot faster and more accurately than the guy shooting at you (wanting/threatening to shoot at you)? 

Draw faster?

If you shoot empty, reload faster?

While moving? 

When he might be moving?

Or popping out from behind a wall or something (like swingers do or may be a drop turner)?

Before he grabs a hostage (like a clam-shell target) or at that time when the hostage ducks for a moment giving you a clear(er) shot (like a Maxx-Trap)?

Maybe those things the USPSA guys do at most every match...

I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce.  Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time.

That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters.

[Steven Cline]

- anyone who thinks that competition is "on demand" in the sense of counter ambush response and TRULY needing to respond on demand when you aren't expecting it needs to study the brain a little more. See my quote in BF's first post.. if you know what you are going to do when the buzzer goes off (and you know that the buzzer is about to go off!) you are not really being tested at anywhere near a one to one level with your ability when you are caught off guard. That can create false confidence.

What the gamer does is much akin to what the soldier ought to be doing- developing his skills to a very high level so that the shooting part is largely subconscious.  Free up his brain to see and react and decide.  The soldier ought to be making plans as to what he is going to do as he rounds that corner, goes through that door, little mental plans he can execute when he is forced to do it.  It's not all that different.  Except when I whoop a ninja's ass on a 32 round field course its my gamer gear, my gamer style, and my game, and not my skill.  I can always slow down... how come the ninja can't speed up?

-habits formed during competition that is invalid in defense shooting (such as the IDPA two shot per target stuff or the Steel challenge one shot & swing stuff) makes you LESS capable of appropriate efficient defense because it conditions you to do something that isn't optimum. You are better off not training any habit in regard to the number of shots you are going to take.

The gamer trains to make two very accurate shots in a very small length of time and be evaluating them.  The gamer sees an inaccurate shot and "makes it up" - fires a third or even fourth shot until he gets the number of accurate shots he wants.  When he shoots at steel he fires until the steel goes down... that's very analogous to "shoot 'em to the ground."  If the bad guy ceases  being a threat because he falls to the ground after one shot, why do you need the others?  If it doesn't fall, keep shooting.

[Sponsor]

[Steven Cline]

That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters.

Actually I know Tyler well from other forums and believe I understood the point he was trying to make and was willing to play to his play- one steadfastly avoided by so many others in the preceding 8 pages.

Don't presume I didn't read the entire thread, I did.  I happen to disagree that games are poor training for real world encounters and posted my arguments for my position.

Possibly this the, "welcome to our forums, get in line with our thinking, quick," response.  Please understand I will follow forum rules, but I will not submit to the forum culture for submitting to forum culture's sake.  Nor does a "big name" impress me.  An invalid argument is an invalid argument. 

I don't respect an resume as much as I respect the valid point.

I won't pander, but I won't be disrespectful and I don't need 800 posts to make a valid point.

Thanks.

[tombogan03884]

You might want to introduce yourself and present some sort of credentials or experience seeing as how the guy your last post is nit picking has a considerable amount of both.

http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/pincus.htm

Rob Pincus is a professional trainer, author and consultant. He and his staff at I.C.E. Training Company provide services to military, law enforcement, private security and students interested in self-defense.

Rob provides efficient training methodologies to those interested in developing firearms, tactical operations and defensive skills. These methods stress gaining maximum value from limited training resources and working well with what the body does naturally under real world conditions.

Rob is the developer of the Combat Focus Shooting program, which has been integrated into military, law enforcement and defensive training programs throughout the United States and Europe. For over a decade, Rob’s ideas on training and techniques have been shared through articles in a variety of publications, television appearances, training DVDs and presentations at various conferences.

In 2006, Rob began developing the Personal Defense Video DVD Series, which covers a wide range of defensive and security topics and often features guest instructors in specialty areas. To date, over 1 million copies of the Combat Focus Shooting video alone have been distributed through the NRA to its Members.

Rob has experience as a law enforcement officer and executive protection agent and was also commissioned as an officer in the United States Army Reserve after graduating from the Military College of Vermont with a degree in Political Science. Rob serves the San Miguel County Sheriff’s Office as a Training Officer and has been a staff writer with S.W.A.T. Magazine since 2001.

From 2003 through 2007, Rob was the Director of The Valhalla Training Center in Montrose, Colorado. Rob developed the training doctrines and programs that brought Valhalla to the attention of the entire shooting industry as a leading source of reality based firearms training. During this time, Valhalla was identified by the Rand Corporation as a leader in private sector reality based training and as a sole source provider to 10th Group Army Special Forces for Extreme Close Quarters Counter Ambush training.

When the owners of Valhalla chose to close the training center component of the club, Rob began offering his training through his own company, I.C.E. Training. I.C.E. stands for Integrity, Consistency and Efficiency, the three tenets of Rob’s programs and approach to training. Staff instructors, Jeremiah Miles and John Brown continue to work with Rob under the I.C.E. banner and the company has established Regional Representative relationships with companies and instructors throughout the United States and Europe.

In 2006, Rob’s first book, Combat Focus Shooting; Intuitive Shooting Fundamentals, was published and it is now in its fifth printing.

In 2008, Rob published The Training Log Book, a hardcover book which featured over 2 dozen essays from top instructors and is designed to help people record important aspects of their training and skill development.

Rob and his team are also regularly sought out as a Team Building and Leadership Development consultants by business leaders and multi-national corporations and conduct programs involving firearm familiarization and other unique experiences.

Recently, Rob has focused on program and instructor development. Instructors groups that have sought out Rob’s expertise and integrated components of his programs include the Chicago Police Department FTU, South Wales Police Department Training Unit (UK), NSW SEAL Qualification Training, Bavarian Polizie (DE), Orange County (FL) Sheriff’s Office and 19th Group Army Special Forces. The First Annual Combat Focus Instructor’s Conference was held in October, 2008 in Houston, TX.

[Steven Cline]

Good lordy, man, you have Rob Pincus' resume memorized?  That's... unsettling.

I might wanna post credentials?

You presume to think for me entirely too much.

First you presume I didn't read the entire thread.  Now you presume I might want to post my credentials... oddly right after I stated I don't respect a resume as much as I respect a valid point.

Have you a valid point to discuss or are you saying that Rob Pincus isn't a big enough boy to defend his own positions?  Oh, maybe a bromance?

You have a valid point? A counter to my points?  I'm not impressed with you nor am I intimidated, so try another tact.  A valid point.

[PegLeg45]

I was going to speak up earlier in the thread and make mention of all the super-realistic practices in the various shooting games that involve things like the pre-run walk-thru of the course of fire, the designated round counts, the see-trough mesh 'barricade" walls and such things that would prepare one for CCW.
Funny none of that happened the last time I had a gun pulled on me.

[tombogan03884]

As a matter of fact, I do have a "valid point".
You are new here and come across as a know it all blow hard,
You are the new kid on the block, no one here knows anything about you or your skill level.
Only that you have a big opinion of your self.
So doesn't Tex Grebner.
Your opinion is meaningless unless the people reading it have a reason to think you know what you are talking about.
At the moment they do not, while Pincus on the other hand is a known quantity.
He can even recognize a "cut and paste" if it's posted under the link to it.
Another thing, since you're the one coming into our community, no one gives a crap whether you're impressed or not.