I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[Steven Cline]

Darn, you ain't never right.
I don't know about "wonderful", but I will agree that
A) Any time spent pulling the trigger accurately on targets it's good training.
B) Doing it under pressure of a timer adds a useful stress factor.

Couldn't bow out gracefully, could ya. 

Just had to take one more jab.

If I've been wrong, you haven't posted how I was.  Instead you demanded a resume. 

Let's talk resumes, sorta-

I'll take a guess- you've been to a number of schools.  You have the patches and pins to prove it.  You love tough internet about the best way to deal with a mob attacking a dinner, but you ain't never put a round down range in the last 10 years against someone else to see who could actually shoot.

You drink the cool-aid.  "This guys cool sounding and charismatic, I'll follow him!"  (Pssst, they get endless takes to get it right).  You know everything the internet has to say about guns except how to press the trigger.

You got 24k+ posts on the forum, have ya got 24k rounds fired yet? In yer life?  I almost get that fired in a year.

So where ya wanna go from here, Tommy?  You want to finally address how the points I made were wrong?  Or you wanna be an internet pussy?  Don't hit that report to mod button yer ready for me to do the same to yer buddy, Deepwater.

If you got a point to make, other that the false idea I have to kiss ass to a 24K poster before I get to have an opinion, then make it.

Otherwise, shut the hell up.

[tombogan03884]

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=14651.msg251747#msg251747

"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters."

That 24K+ posts should have been a clue that if I suggest the "new guy" tone down the attitude  I might know what I'm talking about.

Added later
Since it is to hot to sleep I will elaborate on my previous posts concerning "Steven Cline".
You have insulted the intelligence , knowledge, and ability of valued members and a forum moderator since your very first post.
That sort of attitude may be acceptable in the Politics forum which tends to be like rugby with out the ball.
It is not acceptable in the forums where other people are trying to share information.
We especially do not tell people to
 "

Otherwise, shut the hell up.

Your refusal to moderate your attitude after several suggestions does not reflect well on you as either a Deputy Sheriff or as a human being.

[Rastus]

Morning Rastus,
<snip>
What we do know is that if they are in a gun fight, they will need to be the best shooter gunfighter they can be because their skills are going to degrade. 
<snip>

Had to tweak you a bit there in the context of being a shooter which I generally and maybe wrongly here interpreted as being a "range" or "plinking" shooter.  I am an engineer, I'm picky.  I'm not trying to play gotcha with words this is a dialogue.  I do believe there is a difference between being a shooter and a gunfighter. 

I'd rather be the best gunfighter than the best shooter in a fight.  Bullets are not restricted to an outgoing ballistic path.  For self-defense I believe the mindset should be that if you choose to carry a gun and defend yourself and the worst day of your life happens then you should train to be a gunfighter. 

The instructors that train me teach that shooting is not gunfighting and make a point to prepare a mindset of "Winning the fight" by training.  It's not just a cheesy slogan and when I reflected on the reality of being in a fight and not just shooting (as in cans, steel or paper)...clearly the slogan is not cheesy.  If one finds themselves in a self-defense situation they cannot avoid and the BG has a gun they are not shooting....they are gunfighting.  Shooting competitions do help to prepare us for this.  I take fighting for granted because in my adult life I have always accepted that doctrine of fighting having had a 38 shoved in my unarmed face at age 14 with nowhere to run and having been put in other unfortunate situations of having knives pulled on me when young...I've no doubt when I am in a fight and will act accordingly.

OK...let's think about this a bit.  Though I don't participate regularly, I like IDPA and I know and like the USPSA guys.  I have respect for both disciplines/sports and the good things they bring to the table.  I just don't get the feeling I am in a fight when shooting IDPA and the closest to USPSA I've shot was Phil Strader's Pro-Am when it was in Tulsa.   How can we change the "stress innoculation" in competition to reflect better being in a gunfight?  I am in no way be suggesting being downrange of actual bullets or standing beside or in front of someone who is shooting. 

I know we have paper targets with bad guys holding guns imprinted on them...but I ain't scared of a paper bad guy.... I pretty much just shoot at them because they are holding a gun in the scenario....so in my mind I am shooting and not fighting.  Maybe competing is the best that can be done to simulate a fight but I don't think so.  I think this is a legitimate question, "How do you better imitate a gunfighting competition and less of a shooting competition?"  I have no idea right now....and I have no idea to this day how that guy got those big old 20mm cannon bullets in the cylinder of that itty bitty 38 snubby he was pointing at my face, but believe me when I say he did.

Time for bed....my head is hurting with all this typing.  Timothy, that fella that had Wallaby on his breath in New London wasn't named Jody was he?

[Magoo541]

I think we should all take up golf....

Just sayin....


 

[Rastus]

I think we should all take up golf....

Just sayin....

 

Arrghhhh!  Et tu, Magoo?  Has thou lost thine rabbit-assed mind?

I'm shocked I tell you; shocked and dismayed.  I have lost all confidence in my fellowman.  You have broken me...I am a broken shell of a man.....I might even vote for Obama.  See what you've done!!!

[Sponsor]

[Magoo541]

Arrghhhh!  Et tu, Magoo?  Has thou lost thine rabbit-assed mind?

I'm shocked I tell you; shocked and dismayed.  I have lost all confidence in my fellowman.  You have broken me...I am a broken shell of a man.....I might even vote for Obama.  See what you've done!!!

NOO!!!!! I'm kidding, come back from the cliff!

I think prisoners with life sentences ought to have their sentences forgiven if they can shoot an even round (par on every hole-whatever that is called) then they will know true punishment.

[Steven Cline]

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=14651.msg251747#msg251747

"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post.
If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have understood that the "danger" aspect referred to the games being poor training for real world encounters."

That 24K+ posts should have been a clue that if I suggest the "new guy" tone down the attitude  I might know what I'm talking about.

Added later
Since it is to hot to sleep I will elaborate on my previous posts concerning "Steven Cline".
You have insulted the intelligence , knowledge, and ability of valued members and a forum moderator since your very first post.
That sort of attitude may be acceptable in the Politics forum which tends to be like rugby with out the ball.
It is not acceptable in the forums where other people are trying to share information.
We especially do not tell people to
 "Your refusal to moderate your attitude after several suggestions does not reflect well on you as either a Deputy Sheriff or as a human being.

Understood the incorrect belief that participating in shooting sports (games) was dangerous from the beginning, posted reasons for why it was wrong.  Haven't seen a post from you yet as to how the logic is wrong or the points invalid.  Still waiting.

Don't care much about your opinion of me. It's not a valid point either.

24k posts doesn't prove anything except a lot of time on your hands. 

Pony up reasons.  An argument.  A fact.  Pick at my reasons, by logic, my argument. 

For you and you only- it's not a new guy attitude.  It's a you've given me no reason to respect you attitude, plenty or reasons to disrespect you attitude.

We're doing fine in the other thread on the Summer Meltdown thread.  Try the same technique here.

[Steven Cline]

Had to tweak you a bit there in the context of being a shooter which I generally and maybe wrongly here interpreted as being a "range" or "plinking" shooter.  I am an engineer, I'm picky.  I'm not trying to play gotcha with words this is a dialogue.  I do believe there is a difference between being a shooter and a gunfighter. 

I'm good with that- yer seeking discussion, discourse, hopefully even consensus.  I am fully down wit dat.

I'd rather be the best gunfighter than the best shooter in a fight.  Bullets are not restricted to an outgoing ballistic path.  For self-defense I believe the mindset should be that if you choose to carry a gun and defend yourself and the worst day of your life happens then you should train to be a gunfighter. 

So I would ask you, what's the difference between a gun fighter and a shooter? What differentiates between someone being the best gun-fighter when he is not the best shooter, a what makes the best shooter not the best gun-fighter?

A related question might be, "What do each of mean when we say shooter?"  This matters quite a bit.  A bullseye champion is a shooter, so is a Camp Perry long range champion.  Neither are a USPSA(IPSC) or IDPA dynamic pistol champion.  And the dynamic pistol champion is not the shooter the bullseye or long range rifle is.

The thread was on USPSA/IPSC style shooting- one in which a pistol shooter is challenged to earn as many points as possible with full power handguns, a sport that seeks to balance speed, accuracy and power.  It's also one the rewards creative, "gaming" (also known as legal cheating).  These are gun fighting skills.  

What Tyler Durden was asking in his post- the one I answer for those who would not answer- was what is a tactic.  A tactic is an expedient for achieving a goal.  The goal in this discussion should be to win a gun fight, survive a deadly assault, end attack against one's life.  OK, so what expedients allow us to win, survive, end?

-Shooting the bastard first?  Yep that gets it done, if it's accurate.
-Make the shot accurate? Yep, if the round has enough umpf to get in there and damage important stuff and make him dead or wish he was dead.
-With a powerful enough cartridge.  Yep, just said that.

Viola!  Speed, Power, Accuracy.

One certain way to win, survive, end is to be the best shooter- the alternative to not shooting the other guy first is being the guy getting shot.  That is a crappy way to try and win and survive a gun fight- though it might end it.

-We might not want to get shot? Yep, so USPSA and IDPA encourage the shooter to learn to shoot while moving.  In fact getting off the X mantra is replicated time and time again, with start positions here when we will be shooting at someone from over there.
-We might have to shoot a moving target?  Yep, so dynamic shooting sports have those as well.
-Will we get to choose our shooting positions (create the environment)?  Nope- so you encounter varied stages with targets only visible from certain locations.  You practice dealing with the environment.
-Should we be as certain with our gun, the drawing of the same, reloading, and performance of immediate actions as we can?  Yep- that's another expedient. Do you get that in USPSA either in match practice or practice for the match.  Yes, you do.
-Stress inoculation.  All tests of shooting skill ONLY have the stress of the timer and witnesses and score.  Some have a self imposed expectation of performance.  Fewer have the stress of the risk of not winning it all; not taking the home a trophy or a prize.  For a very few- there is the risk of loosing sponsorship.  But it's as much if not more than what you get at most shooting schools.  For more stress inoculation, one seeks out different games such as paint-ball, air-soft.  Even at a school it's still a game- until someone dies is an artificial replication; a game.

For the above reasons I submit for your consideration that it's hard to believe the "best" USPSA shooters will be damn fine gun-fighters.  They practice the tactics which help win, survive and end.

Is it perfect?  Nope.  Never said it was.

The instructors that train me teach that shooting is not gunfighting and make a point to prepare a mindset of "Winning the fight" by training.  It's not just a cheesy slogan and when I reflected on the reality of being in a fight and not just shooting (as in cans, steel or paper)...clearly the slogan is not cheesy.  If one finds themselves in a self-defense situation they cannot avoid and the BG has a gun they are not shooting....they are gunfighting.  Shooting competitions do help to prepare us for this.  I take fighting for granted because in my adult life I have always accepted that doctrine of fighting having had a 38 shoved in my unarmed face at age 14 with nowhere to run and having been put in other unfortunate situations of having knives pulled on me when young...I've no doubt when I am in a fight and will act accordingly.

In this any instructor would not be wrong.  But competition is driven by the desire to win.  To win you best, you dominate.  In USPSA you dominate the competition with those expedients mentioned above and those expedients win gunfights- they make gunfighters.

Does it lack that in your face aggression with the real tenor or death and violence?  Nope.  Can anything but the real thing?  Nope.  Only those air-soft and paintball games up it more.  Other than that, box, wrestle, martial arts, would help.  One can't expect the MMA guy to win the gun fight without any shooting practice.  And the safe beat is always on the person practiced with the weapon in the fight.  The shooter only has to get over the pulling of the trigger and killing.  The MMA guy would have to figure out how the tool works, and it really isn't that easy of a tool to employ well (or well enough).  Hell, the average hit rate for trained LEOs lands between 25% and 34%.  

OK...let's think about this a bit.  Though I don't participate regularly, I like IDPA and I know and like the USPSA guys.  I have respect for both disciplines/sports and the good things they bring to the table.  I just don't get the feeling I am in a fight when shooting IDPA and the closest to USPSA I've shot was Phil Strader's Pro-Am when it was in Tulsa.   How can we change the "stress innoculation" in competition to reflect better being in a gunfight?  I am in no way be suggesting being downrange of actual bullets or standing beside or in front of someone who is shooting. 

I know we have paper targets with bad guys holding guns imprinted on them...but I ain't scared of a paper bad guy.... I pretty much just shoot at them because they are holding a gun in the scenario....so in my mind I am shooting and not fighting.  Maybe competing is the best that can be done to simulate a fight but I don't think so.  I think this is a legitimate question, "How do you better imitate a gunfighting competition and less of a shooting competition?"  I have no idea right now....and I have no idea to this day how that guy got those big old 20mm cannon bullets in the cylinder of that itty bitty 38 snubby he was pointing at my face, but believe me when I say he did.

You have identified a critical expedient.  And one that we might not be able to training.  We can't ever credible enter the real risk of death to our training routine.  So if we can't, why not worry about what we can train.

I simply harken you back to the Marine LTC, and combat veteran who instinctively knew that massive shooting skill is a fight winner.

Why would SF and (top) SWAT train so hard to be better shooters if it weren't actually a critical expedient to the goal?  It is.  They are skilled at the speed, accuracy, gun handling components at the high A class to Master class level.  No slouches at all.  

BTW, some closed minded naysayers should research Pat McNamara and the USPSA club run for Delta at Ft. Bragg, and visit this link : http://www.facebook.com/pages/37-PSR-GUN-CLUB/128118027254276

See if they can figure out what's going on there and why is USPSA style shooting is such a detriment to winning, surviving, ending.


Thanks for the opportunity to discuss further.

[jaybet]

Thanks for jumping in Tim.  I got sucked into this reading backwards, but couldn't devote enough energy to it to really see where things went wrong. Frankly I'm impressed by the energy expended. Looks like Tom may have met up with a kindred spirit in their dogged relentlessness.

Tom and Steve are both informed, although perhaps in different ways. I was glad that you reminded everyone that this is a friendly place. Let's leave that on the table for a few minutes. Insulting conversation is unbecoming.

[PegLeg45]

I've been reading this entire thread to determine what and where the conflict is coming from.

I think the conflict comes simply from browbeating the point that anyone else's OPINION is wrong because it doesn't jive with theirs.

There are many posts on this forum, and the majority fall into one of a few categories: posting of info, asking for help, or stating an OPINION. WE all know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.

The OP was a stated opinion by someone who made an observation. Others chimed in with their own opinion on the subject.

Mr. Cline joined in with his opinion (regardless of the validity of the points, still an opinion) and everything was kosher, and made a lot of sense......... until the last sentence of his first post where he made it both personal and assuming toward the OP's writer. Tom simply called him on it for his poor choice of words and tone and he took exception to it and it escalated from there.

Bottom line: It doesn't matter whose opinion is right or wrong....because guess what? OPINIONS can be a little bit of both from any perspective. But to wholesale state that someone else is wrong and only your opinion can possibly be right seems somewhat hypocritical to me.
ALL OPINIONS are welcome here, as long as they are meant well. If I think it is cold outside and someone else thinks it is hot, neither should have to post an encyclopedia on meteorology to back it up....it is just what it is: a stated opinion and folks can either take it or leave it.

I kinda wish the mods would lock the thread....or just delete it altogether.

**Editor's note: This is all just an opinion and should be taken as such. It is not meant as a personal assault on anyone's character, living or dead. No animals were harmed in the writing of this opinion. That is all.