I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[Solus]

Well, time to make an entry here as an inexperienced observer.

First I'll give a shot at what is "dangerous" about that type of competition...and it does involve the timer.

The emphasis is to get to the end of the stage as quick as possible.  That is not going to be the best tactic in all firefights.  Moving back or away from the sight line to the target will often be used in a firefight.

There are other things that the "game" cannot provide..and that is a thinking and reacting opponent. ..  not that this is a "danger", just that it is not a factor in the competition.

The only place I have seen both of those included is in Force-on-Force training.  Granted, you don't have the pressure of a life or death situation, but you have just as much as trying to beat the clock.  Downside is you are not using a carry weapon...and that is good...to keep it from being a life or death situation. 

All the gun handling and trigger skills can be learned from more stationary training.

[tombogan03884]

Understood the incorrect belief that participating in shooting sports (games) was dangerous from the beginning, posted reasons for why it was wrong.  Haven't seen a post from you yet as to how the logic is wrong or the points invalid.  Still waiting.

It ingrains bad habits, such as the aggressive advance . Very few of us on here including most of the cops would be justified in most circumstances in staging a one person "charge of the Light Brigade".
The focus is supposed to be "self defense, which requires eliminating the threat, not storming Iwo Jima.

Don't care much about your opinion of me. It's not a valid point either.

24k posts doesn't prove anything except a lot of time on your hands.  

Pony up reasons.  An argument.  A fact.  Pick at my reasons, by logic, my argument.  
Your opinion is not the issue, it is your rude arrogant attitude that is the issue. I really don't give a crap either way on the subject of the thread.
For you and you only- it's not a new guy attitude.  It's a you've given me no reason to respect you attitude, plenty or reasons to disrespect you attitude.

From your first post, before I ever saw this thread had been Resurrected
"I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce.  Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time."

When I rather gently pointed out that that comment did not sound to good
"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post."
The reply I received was insulting arrogant attitude

"Don't presume I didn't read the entire thread, I did.  I happen to disagree that games are poor training for real world encounters and posted my arguments for my position.

Possibly this the, "welcome to our forums, get in line with our thinking, quick," response.  Please understand I will follow forum rules, but I will not submit to the forum culture for submitting to forum culture's sake.  Nor does a "big name" impress me.  An invalid argument is an invalid argument.

I don't respect an resume as much as I respect the valid point.

I won't pander, but I won't be disrespectful and I don't need 800 posts to make a valid point.

Thanks."
You have shown very little respect for any one so far in this thread.
As I have pointed out before, you are the new guy here, you fit in with us, not the other way around.
We do not insult people in the non political threads, and we do not tell them to, in your words, "Shut the hell up" even there.



We're doing fine in the other thread on the Summer Meltdown thread.  Try the same technique here.

Because any arrogance you show with your comments there is not directed at our fellow forum members.

[MikeBjerum]

Three things:

1.  Tom - Take a breath and remember when you got overheated a while back.  It didn't end well, but you've done well ever since after realizing what you did;
2.  This is a topic that just needs to go away, because every time someone revives it we turn into a bunch of old roosters strutting and fighting;
3.  Note for the future - On every forum I've ever visited the topic of training and competitive shooting crossing paths turns everyone into jackasses.  Why can't we just accept that trigger time is trigger time, and any trigger time is not only better than none but it is down right fun?

[tombogan03884]

Three things:

1.  Tom - Take a breath and remember when you got overheated a while back.  It didn't end well, but you've done well ever since after realizing what you did;
2.  This is a topic that just needs to go away, because every time someone revives it we turn into a bunch of old roosters strutting and fighting;
3.  Note for the future - On every forum I've ever visited the topic of training and competitive shooting crossing paths turns everyone into jackasses.  Why can't we just accept that trigger time is trigger time, and any trigger time is not only better than none but it is down right fun?

The issue here is a matter of common courtesy, and respect for others on the forum.
I'm must say that it saddens me that I, the most sarcastic SOB on here , seem to be the only one willing to comment on something I see as wrong.
To many of the rest of you are sounding like Rodney King, "Cain't we all just git along*".
As to the original post in the thread, Games aren't training, and training should not be a game.
 Even if there are some shared skill sets , the mindset is different.

* No we can't. If we could there would no need for Self defense related forums.

[Steven Cline]

Understood the incorrect belief that participating in shooting sports (games) was dangerous from the beginning, posted reasons for why it was wrong.  Haven't seen a post from you yet as to how the logic is wrong or the points invalid.  Still waiting.

It ingrains bad habits, such as the aggressive advance . Very few of us on here including most of the cops would be justified in most circumstances in staging a one person "charge of the Light Brigade".
The focus is supposed to be "self defense, which requires eliminating the threat, not storming Iwo Jima.

That's it?  That's all?

I've posted almost dozens of benefits from shooting USPSA and your ONE post is aggressive advance?  

I counter your argument with a fact- on this very day I shot an 8 stage match (not real well, but I shot it) and I moved

LEFT
RIGHT
BACK
FORWARD

"Charge of the light Brigade,"  I'm sorry you don't like the high round count- but it's FUN!

FUN, FUN, FUN.

As my father-in-law, a retired USA Col, Infantry, and one time commander of an AMU observed- boys will work hours to move a old washer to the top of the hill to push it down.  The lesson?  People work harder to get good at a game than just about all else.  As Ltc. Grossman said, "Piss on golf."  A warrior's recreation should reinforce his combat skills.  He specifically endorsed shooting games.

So what you see as a detriment certain well respected persons see as a decided benefit.  

Oh, it's also called trigger time.

300 rounds of trigger time (with REF re-shoots)

FUN, FUN, FUN combined with lots of benefit.


I observe that you lack a great deal of understanding of USPSA style shooting.  Understanding that would come if you actually shoot some USPSA style shooting.  I deduce then that you speak quite a bit about something you have neither knowledge or experience.  Does that seem prudent to you?

What else you got?

Don't care much about your opinion of me. It's not a valid point either.

24k posts doesn't prove anything except a lot of time on your hands.  

Pony up reasons.  An argument.  A fact.  Pick at my reasons, by logic, my argument.  
Your opinion is not the issue, it is your rude arrogant attitude that is the issue. I really don't give a crap either way on the subject of the thread.
For you and you only- it's not a new guy attitude.  It's a you've given me no reason to respect you attitude, plenty or reasons to disrespect you attitude.

From your first post, before I ever saw this thread had been Resurrected
"I'm thinking someone early on in this thread went to his first USPSA match and got his ass kicked something fierce.  Instead realizing his shooting skills aren't up to par it's bash the sport time."

I still do.  

But, if this get's yer panties in a twist all I can say is it's time to nut up.

I've seen it a couple dozen times- the bad-ass ninja shows to match.  Stands aloof and arrogant.  Wearing his tactical clothing.  Sniffing at the "gamers," the "hot shots" as BloodFarts called them (that's a snarky mildly insulting term in the way he used it... how come you didn't attempt to dress him down for his lack of civility... would it be because you happen to agree with him?

That might just fit the pattern I've observed.  Snarky incivility you ignore if you agree with the poster, like DeepWater.

Sorry, back on the point- then the timer goes off and not only does he not shoot nearly as fast (speed is a tactic that wins gun fights) he doesn't shoot as accurate (accuracy wins gun fights too) and after his first stage the world is spinning and crashing in on him.  He ain't the bad-ass with a gun he thought he was.  

When I rather gently pointed out that that comment did not sound to good
"That doesn't seem like a very good way to "make friends and influence people" with your first post."
The reply I received was insulting arrogant attitude

"Don't presume I didn't read the entire thread, I did.  I happen to disagree that games are poor training for real world encounters and posted my arguments for my position.

Possibly this the, "welcome to our forums, get in line with our thinking, quick," response.  Please understand I will follow forum rules, but I will not submit to the forum culture for submitting to forum culture's sake.  Nor does a "big name" impress me.  An invalid argument is an invalid argument.

I don't respect an resume as much as I respect the valid point.

I won't pander, but I won't be disrespectful and I don't need 800 posts to make a valid point.

Thanks."
You have shown very little respect for any one so far in this thread.

Actually I've been quite civil with many posters, just not YOU.  Boo hoo.

As I have pointed out before, you are the new guy here, you fit in with us, not the other way around.
We do not insult people in the non political threads, and we do not tell them to, in your words, "Shut the hell up" even there.

NO I DON'T HAVE TO FIT IN HERE.  

I ABIDE BY THE FORUM TOS AND DISAGREE AS MUCH AS I WANT.  I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHALLENGE ANYONE'S POST.  I DON"T HAVE TO KISS ASS WHEN I DO.

YOU ARE NOT THE ARBITER OF WHO IS WORTHY TO POST HERE.  WHAT POSTS ARE WORTHY.  IT'S CLEAR WHY YOU ARE NOT A MODERATOR.

Besides, the STHU was a conditioned statement.  I didn't say it, I recommended it if certain conditions couldn't be meet- reading comprehension, ahem.

We're doing fine in the other thread on the Summer Meltdown thread.  Try the same technique here.

Because any arrogance you show with your comments there is not directed at our fellow forum members.

I would say in the other thread the real difference is you're not trying to bully me with the, "I'm the guy with the most posts around here so you better listen to me," 'tude.

Try that here.

BTW, I'm getting fan mail for standing up to you.  Me thinks that speaks volumes.  Possibly you should ruminate on that.

[Sponsor]

[Steven Cline]

Well, time to make an entry here as an inexperienced observer.

First I'll give a shot at what is "dangerous" about that type of competition...and it does involve the timer.

The emphasis is to get to the end of the stage as quick as possible.  That is not going to be the best tactic in all firefights.  Moving back or away from the sight line to the target will often be used in a firefight.

You've correctly identified that the sport emphasizes getting to the end of the stage as soon as possible.  

But, possibly some exploration of whether that is dangerous is in order.

First, why is practicing speed dangerous?  When I read statutes I see terms such as, "immediate."  If the threat of death or great bodily harm weren't immediate we wouldn't be justified in shooting.  Ergo, when we are justified in shooting, we are justified in shooting right now.  Speed is critical.

You correctly identified that some of the speed measured is the speed to the end of the course.  While speedy movement may not be the best course of action it is not always the wrong course of action.

It is an action the shooter chooses, just like the shooter chooses sometimes to shoot on the move slowly, or at a medium pace, or as quickly as he can- dependent on the circumstances he is confronting.

In some circumstances a person might need to aggressively move someplace- to where a loved one is in danger.  

Yet, I have observed previously, I retain the ability to slow down, if one lacks the ability to speed up, it's not there when needed.

There are other things that the "game" cannot provide..and that is a thinking and reacting opponent. ..  not that this is a "danger", just that it is not a factor in the competition.

Indeed.  That factor is lacking in most training.  Since is lacking in most training, it could not reasonably be counted as a danger, as you observe above.  And as you observe to follow:

The only place I have seen both of those included is in Force-on-Force training.  Granted, you don't have the pressure of a life or death situation, but you have just as much as trying to beat the clock.  Downside is you are not using a carry weapon...and that is good...to keep it from being a life or death situation.  

I would be hesitant to disagree that force-on-force is one of the best training one could engage.  But, it too, has limitations and dangers if don't incorrectly.  Would you agree?

All the gun handling and trigger skills can be learned from more stationary training.

To some degree to I agree.  But, to a greater degree, and gently, sir, I disagree.  These skills are not truly learned until they are practiced under match pressure.  In dynamic environs.  

[BAC]

This is getting really boring and tedious guys.

On the plus side, I think we found someone who's even more long-winded than FQ.   

That was a joke and was not intended to hurt anyone's feelings or provoke a 3 page soliloquy on why I'm mean or wrong.  It's just a joke.

[jaybet]

"I know FQ and YOU, sir, are NO FQ"! 
Ah BAC you got me going! Just getting in the spirit of things.
It's like a car wreck...you don't want to look but there's a morbid facination...

And some of you guys are sending fan mail over all this pissing and moaning? I guess Marshall should set up a separate thread so those who wish to can compete. But just remember...it really will do NOTHING for your true pissing and moaning skills. In a crunch, you'll have to rely on your instincts.

[twyacht]

I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.

Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....

DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.

We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.

[GeorgeCook]

I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.

Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....

DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.

We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.

I'm sorry, TW, but I had to read that post several times because I thought you were referring to someone else on this forum. But I hope you are even handed with that admonition with all who are on this forum - newbies to oldies.