I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[jaybet]

George,
Don't be alarmed. We are here in a varied yet kindred spirit. Opinions are opinions and facts are facts. When someone is arrogant it gets a reaction.
Feel free to PM me and I would be happy to go into detail as to how this forum has enlightened me and how the members here care for each other and the country in which they live.

[jaybet]

I'm sorry Mr. Cline as your flagrant arrogance has been found on many forums, guess what? It's not this one.

Differences of tactics, methodology, 9mm vs, 40 debates have been long withered out before your time her to e. Mind your arrogance, and try not to bully a forum long established with many who have disregarded your kind better suited for the Glock forum....

DRTV is not that type of adolescent "my Schwartz is bigger than yours" forum....Post a reasonable position, without a personal affront and make your point.

We are never shy of a good debate, or even argument. But your "opinion" is yours alone and don't expect arrogance and ego to make your argument more convincing.

TW George's concerns got me sidetracked, but well hell. I don't post all that much but it really gets under my skin when someone is obnoxious and condescending, AND it turns out he's selling his own brand of crap on the internet.
Thanks for saying what I wanted to but was trying to be too clever to clearly state.
He has no idea what members of this forum have done for each other.

[PegLeg45]

I'm sorry, TW, but I had to read that post several times because I thought you were referring to someone else on this forum. But I hope you are even handed with that admonition with all who are on this forum - newbies to oldies.

Not that anyone is owed an explanation or background, but a while back a long-time forum member (oldie?), and high mileage contributor, basically got mad and left the forum because the rest of the "forum regulars" would not take his 'side' in a heated exchange with/over a "newbie".......

This site has always been self-leveling........eventually.

[tombogan03884]

Not that anyone is owed an explanation or background, but a while back a long-time forum member (oldie?), and high mileage contributor, basically got mad and left the forum because the rest of the "forum regulars" would not take his 'side' in a heated exchange with/over a "newbie".......

This site has always been self-leveling........eventually.

To be completely accurate they both left because so many of us refused to worship at the alter of St. Ron Paul, and said we were really sick of hearing about him.

[PegLeg45]

To be completely accurate they both left because so many of us refused to worship at the alter of St. Ron Paul, and said we were really sick of hearing about him.

I was referring to someone else (an even longer member) but the same applies here also. 

[Sponsor]

[Michael Bane]

"My Schwartz is bigger than yours?"

NOW, we're getting serious! LOL! This is truly the thread that won't die, and I'm sorry to be so long in checking in.

I assume most of you guys know my credentials...I was at the first meeting to create USPSA and draft the bylaws; I worked in the creation of the National Range Officer Institute and was in the first "crash test dummy" class for hammering out what we would teach; I founded FRONT SIGHT Magazine, was its first editor and worked for years promoting USPSA. My IDPA membership number is A00009; I co-founded one of the first big IDPA clubs...I also co-taught the first safety officer class for that sport. More recently, I am one of the founders of the Ruger Rimfire Challenge, am an active cowboy action shooter (just chalked up my highest finish in a major national match last weekend) and am certified RO1 and RO2 in cowboy. Like Steven Cline, I fire tens of thousands of rounds in competition every year.

And Tyler D., I've been to most of those high-speed low-drag shooting academies you mentioned in your EXCELLENT post! Done force-on-force with many of the top guys around; worked as a "guest terrorist" with the Rangers at Ft. Benning "killing" some of the top SWAT cops in the country...and I've been privileged to work directly with people like Walt Rauch, Jim Cirillo, Command Master Chief (ret) Denny Chalker, the top competitors in the world, blah blah.

A few years back I spent some time with an Israeli spook and trainer was was an active, an excellent, IPSC shooter. I asked him that, given his profession involved shooting people who were shooting at him, if any of his competition licks had gotten him in trouble. "Michael Michael Michael!" he chided. "The very first thing we all must do as adults is separate reality from fantasy. Having down that, we live in reality."

I strongly promote competition of any kind, because I believe it:

1) Teaches and internalizes high-level gun-handling skills
2) Teaches the shooter (to cop a concept from Brian Enos) to "see what he has to see" to make the shot
3) Teaches and internalizes safety
4) Provides excellent stress inoculation
5) Teaches basic skills (trigger, verify with sights, movement, "broken" position shooting, etc.)
6) Most important, teaches focus!

In self-defense I teach that there are two critical paths:

1) Shoot/no-shoot
2) Deliver the shot

Obviously, in a chaos situation there's more going on than that. But those 2 critical paths are central. If you can't work those critical paths, you will fail, and the consequences to yourself will not be hunky-dory.

Shoot/no-shoot is built on our strategic thinking, the strategies, the knowledge base, we put in place long before we walk into the fan. Tactics are the tools we use to help us deliver the shot. I believe (stealing this time from Bruce Lee) that complexity is a disease and "style" of any kind is an impediment to accomplishing what we need to accomplish in a self-defense situation.

I also do understand at a cellular level that if my focus fails, regardless of whether it is in a match, in a self-defense situation, or doing pretty much anything in life, I will not be able to succeed at what I'm attempting to do. In a self-defense situation, that may cost me or mine our lives.

Training, as separate from competition (as it always is), helps us understand what's necessary to deliver the shot in any situation. Force-on-force teaches us that a live opponent will ALWAYS act in a way that totally screws what we may have been planning. Force-on-force teaches us, therefore, to, as my Israeli friend said so eloquently, be in the real world.

So Mr. Cline, welcome! And be assured that I think everyone on this forum are as crazy as outhouse rats! But that's not necessarily a bad thing...

Michael B

[Timothy]

Mikey, the last thing we miscreants need around here is the voice of reason!   

Nice post though!   

[Rastus]

It's good to have you chime in Mr. B!  I'd say your credentials are at least as good as the best that is out there in the formerly free world.

And as the thread winds down until another day......let us be mindful that the snipers are wondering what all this fuss is about concerning the lowly handgun....as if it were the supreme element of combat in their world. 

I'm just sayin'.....no amount of handgun implemented training to scan my area is going to protect me from those guys if they don't want to be seen.

Somebody puhlease lock this thread.

[tombogan03884]

It's good to have you chime in Mr. B!  I'd say your credentials are at least as good as the best that is out there in the formerly free world.

And as the thread winds down until another day......let us be mindful that the snipers are wondering what all this fuss is about concerning the lowly handgun....as if it were the supreme element of combat in their world. 

I'm just sayin'.....no amount of handgun implemented training to scan my area is going to protect me from those guys if they don't want to be seen.

Somebody puhlease lock this thread.

True enough, but for the vast majority, (not even going to guess at the numbers,) the hand gun is what will be available when something needs to get shot.

[Steven Cline]

"My Schwartz is bigger than yours?"

NOW, we're getting serious! LOL! This is truly the thread that won't die, and I'm sorry to be so long in checking in.

I assume most of you guys know my credentials...I was at the first meeting to create USPSA and draft the bylaws; I worked in the creation of the National Range Officer Institute and was in the first "crash test dummy" class for hammering out what we would teach; I founded FRONT SIGHT Magazine, was its first editor and worked for years promoting USPSA. My IDPA membership number is A00009; I co-founded one of the first big IDPA clubs...I also co-taught the first safety officer class for that sport. More recently, I am one of the founders of the Ruger Rimfire Challenge, am an active cowboy action shooter (just chalked up my highest finish in a major national match last weekend) and am certified RO1 and RO2 in cowboy. Like Steven Cline, I fire tens of thousands of rounds in competition every year.

And Tyler D., I've been to most of those high-speed low-drag shooting academies you mentioned in your EXCELLENT post! Done force-on-force with many of the top guys around; worked as a "guest terrorist" with the Rangers at Ft. Benning "killing" some of the top SWAT cops in the country...and I've been privileged to work directly with people like Walt Rauch, Jim Cirillo, Command Master Chief (ret) Denny Chalker, the top competitors in the world, blah blah.

A few years back I spent some time with an Israeli spook and trainer was was an active, an excellent, IPSC shooter. I asked him that, given his profession involved shooting people who were shooting at him, if any of his competition licks had gotten him in trouble. "Michael Michael Michael!" he chided. "The very first thing we all must do as adults is separate reality from fantasy. Having down that, we live in reality."

I strongly promote competition of any kind, because I believe it:

1) Teaches and internalizes high-level gun-handling skills
2) Teaches the shooter (to cop a concept from Brian Enos) to "see what he has to see" to make the shot
3) Teaches and internalizes safety
4) Provides excellent stress inoculation
5) Teaches basic skills (trigger, verify with sights, movement, "broken" position shooting, etc.)
6) Most important, teaches focus!

In self-defense I teach that there are two critical paths:

1) Shoot/no-shoot
2) Deliver the shot

Obviously, in a chaos situation there's more going on than that. But those 2 critical paths are central. If you can't work those critical paths, you will fail, and the consequences to yourself will not be hunky-dory.

Shoot/no-shoot is built on our strategic thinking, the strategies, the knowledge base, we put in place long before we walk into the fan. Tactics are the tools we use to help us deliver the shot. I believe (stealing this time from Bruce Lee) that complexity is a disease and "style" of any kind is an impediment to accomplishing what we need to accomplish in a self-defense situation.

I also do understand at a cellular level that if my focus fails, regardless of whether it is in a match, in a self-defense situation, or doing pretty much anything in life, I will not be able to succeed at what I'm attempting to do. In a self-defense situation, that may cost me or mine our lives.

Training, as separate from competition (as it always is), helps us understand what's necessary to deliver the shot in any situation. Force-on-force teaches us that a live opponent will ALWAYS act in a way that totally screws what we may have been planning. Force-on-force teaches us, therefore, to, as my Israeli friend said so eloquently, be in the real world.

So Mr. Cline, welcome! And be assured that I think everyone on this forum are as crazy as outhouse rats! But that's not necessarily a bad thing...

Michael B

Thanks, Mike.  I kinda moved on but a reasoned response from a moderator gives me hope.

Would you mind sending a PM letting me know a bit where "the line" is?  There was some snivelling and misty eyes because I weren't respecting the established crowd.  I held back some of my stronger responses for fear of actually running afoul of the TOS as opposed to just stepping on toes.

Much appreciated in advance.