Cast frame in 1911's

[GI Joe]

Many 1911 pistols nowadays such as the Para GI Expert and the Remington R1 for example have cast steel frames. Ruger has done this for years with success but the design of the frames was made with the manufacturing process in mind. The 1911 frame was also designed with manufacturing processes of the day in mind. My question is this based upon anyones experiance do you think the durabilty of the cast steel frames is good? Say a 20,000 round service life? I had a bad experaience with a Para P14 with a cast aluminum frame, due to the slide impact the ejector worked loose. Much to the credit of the design the gun funtioned fine, I found this problem during cleaning. The mounting hole in the frame had become elongated. I know we are talkeing different materials here but it makes me wonder non the less. Thank you in advance for you replies.

[tombogan03884]

When I worked at T/C almost all metal parts were made from castings, (exceptions were Barrels, those were machined from bar stock )
With cast steel the only problem you MIGHT run into is "Porosity", a void inside the casting. These are generally found and scrapped out by the operator doing the machining as they are usually pretty noticeable. Unless you're shooting especially heavy loads you are extremely unlikely to have the type of problems you described with the Aluminum frame.

[GI Joe]

Thanks tombogan03884! That is good information to know!

[Combat Diver]

My 1911 AMT frame is cast.  I've got around 10,000 rds through it most +P(haven't shoot it much this decade however).  Bought the gun new back around 86' or so and it still goes bang when I get the time to shoot her.

CD

[billt]

Ruger Investment Casts the receiver for the Ruger #1 Single Shot rifle. This falling block design is considered to be one of the strongest designs manufactured today. As an impromptu "test" of it's strength many years ago, Ruger took a .458 Win. Mag. Tropical Model and pounded a Hornady 500 Grain Solid into the rifling. They then took a .458 Win. Mag. case and filled it to the top with Bullseye powder and chambered it. They remotely fired the gun and It did NOT blow up! The stock split and the barrel bulged. The action was all but fused shut. Chamber pressures were estimated to be around 185,000 P.S.I.! This was done by Bill Ruger to stop the false speculation that Investment Cast Ruger receivers were inherently "weak". It was a point well taken by the gun industry, and shooters in general.  Bill T.

[Sponsor]

[warhawke]

Cast frames are actually stronger than forged in terms of durability. Cast frames have more flexibility which allows them to absorb the force of the weapon firing more efficiently, whereas the forged steel frames resist the force more strongly which causes greater stress at the weakest points in the structure. The Mk3 FN Hi-Power uses a cast frame because when they developed the .40 S&W they found the forged frames would crack with very few rounds. Too often people get set on an idea which might have been valid at one point in time, but which the march of time and technology have now rendered obsolete, kind of like the idea that plastic was nowhere near strong enough to be use as the frame of a rifle or handgun.

[TAB]

more flexing can mean more metal fatigue.


Reality, guns really don't have to be built that tough atleast compared to many other things.

[tombogan03884]

Cast frames are actually stronger than forged in terms of durability. Cast frames have more flexibility which allows them to absorb the force of the weapon firing more efficiently, whereas the forged steel frames resist the force more strongly which causes greater stress at the weakest points in the structure. The Mk3 FN Hi-Power uses a cast frame because when they developed the .40 S&W they found the forged frames would crack with very few rounds. Too often people get set on an idea which might have been valid at one point in time, but which the march of time and technology have now rendered obsolete, kind of like the idea that plastic was nowhere near strong enough to be use as the frame of a rifle or handgun.

The granular structure of cast  steel makes me question that.   

[PegLeg45]

The granular structure of cast  steel makes me question that.   

+1...I'm with Tom on this one.

On the "wear" scale, I agree that some cast alloys have better wear properties than forgings.
HOWEVER, in the realm of cast and forged metals that I have worked in (iron, steel, and aluminum) I've yet to see a cast alloy that was designed for much flex. Minor expansion and contraction within a calculated range from heating and cooling, but not flex.
Just like in auto engines. Too much flex and an engine block/head/manifold will crack. Heck, I've seen them crack from being tightened down wrong. That's also why forged connecting rods are stronger than cast rods in high rpm applications. Under 6000 rpm in a small block Chevy and cast will suffice. Dance above that for too many songs and you need forged for the excess stress.
We used to get cast aluminum parts in the industry I was in and we hated using them because a rookie would always over torque them and crack the frames.

I'm not saying they do not exist, mind you, I'm saying I've not saw it.

[billt]

The biggest issue with castings is there is a right and a wrong way to do it. Ruger has taken Investment Casting to unprecedented levels with their subsidiary, Pine Tree Castings. They pioneered the Investment Casting process for Titanium, and cast many of the top name golf clubs in the industry.

If Investment Casting is done incorrectly a lot of voids and porosity can be the result. Ruger is about the best example of how, when done correctly, it is up to, and in many cases beyond, the quality of forged or billet made products. Ruger is known for strong firearms and they Investment Cast most every model they manufacture, from frames for Ruger Blackhawk revolvers to the Model 77 bolt action receiver, and just about everything in between.  Bill T.