Yet Another Hussein "Green" Failure

[fightingquaker13]

I am going to sound heretical here as a libertarian, but I will make this point. The free market is a good thing, BUT, it tends to reward short term over long term investment. Funding R@D with no guarantee of payoff isn't exactly a path to profit. Likewise, sometimes technologies need to hit a critical mass before they become profitable. This is where government help (done right) can be useful.You will note for instance you are paying no sales taxes on Internet sales even though the states could hire a 12 year old to send you a quarterly bill. Why? The government decided to help jump start web commerce by exempting them from these taxes. Likewise the net itself is an offshoot of a government project (just ask Al Gore ). Things like rebates or tax credits for energy efficient or "green" products seem justified to me IF they are geared towards being a sort of training wheels to help these products take off. This is because energy independence seems like a national security issue and therefore a little pump priming is within the purview of legitimate state action. I mean yes its cheaper to buy oil from the Saudis, but I'd just as soon we produced our energy here, so lets find, and fund, a way to make that happen
FQ13

[TAB]

actually FQ there has been alot of RD done strickly from consumer demand.  paper recycling comes to mind.  Over all its actually more damaging to the envro to recycle paper, but since there is a HUGE consumer demand for it, its done.

[fightingquaker13]

actually FQ there has been alot of RD done strickly from consumer demand.  paper recycling comes to mind.  Over all its actually more damaging to the envro to recycle paper, but since there is a HUGE consumer demand for it, its done.

Look, that's true. As Steve Jobs (I think) said "You don't get rich giving people what they want. You get rich giving them something they didn't know they wanted until you showed it to them". Still, no company in the world would have come up with the internet, or the billion and ten spin offs from the cold war military/space industries without the government funding from the DOD and NASA. I love the free market, but its not a cult. Sometimes non-profit oriented investment directed at something like national security (in this case energy independence) can jump start the private sector in ways that would never have been possible otherwise.
FQ13

PS Let me put it to you this way.
"How many Libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb"?
"None. The invisible hand will do it for them".

[tombogan03884]

I am going to sound heretical here as a libertarian, but I will make this point. The free market is a good thing, BUT, it tends to reward short term over long term investment. Funding R@D with no guarantee of payoff isn't exactly a path to profit. Likewise, sometimes technologies need to hit a critical mass before they become profitable. This is where government help (done right) can be useful.You will note for instance you are paying no sales taxes on Internet sales even though the states could hire a 12 year old to send you a quarterly bill. Why? The government decided to help jump start web commerce by exempting them from these taxes. Likewise the net itself is an offshoot of a government project (just ask Al Gore ). Things like rebates or tax credits for energy efficient or "green" products seem justified to me IF they are geared towards being a sort of training wheels to help these products take off. This is because energy independence seems like a national security issue and therefore a little pump priming is within the purview of legitimate state action. I mean yes its cheaper to buy oil from the Saudis, but I'd just as soon we produced our energy here, so lets find, and fund, a way to make that happen
FQ13

FQ has a valid point here, the aviation industry is a good example.  Military use, originally as spotters for gunnery, coupled with various Prize competitions lead to advances that made the tech leaps of the World wars possible.
Look at the Bendix Race, Burbank to NY, sponsored by the military it not only aided the development of long range bombers but also transport aircraft.
The first race took days, the last one was over in hours.

[Pathfinder]

Look, that's true. As Steve Jobs (I think) said "You don't get rich giving people what they want. You get rich giving them something they didn't know they wanted until you showed it to them". Still, no company in the world would have come up with the internet, or the billion and ten spin offs from the cold war military/space industries without the government funding from the DOD and NASA. I love the free market, but its not a cult. Sometimes non-profit oriented investment directed at something like national security (in this case energy independence) can jump start the private sector in ways that would never have been possible otherwise.
FQ13

PS Let me put it to you this way.
"How many Libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb"?
"None. The invisible hand will do it for them".

You talk as if the internet was a .gov planned program. It was not. Yes, the earliest infrastructure was heavily based on DoD infrastructure, specifically the DARPA computers. But it was market-driven - the DARPA geeks wanted to communicate more easily with each other, and trends in the computer hobbyest world were beginning to move into more enhanced communications other than single user BBS'.

The actual telecomm protocols were worked out in DARPA by people desperately trying to hide the work from their own management, as it wasn't considered to be true "work". The folks at CERN then picked up the banner and ran with it into what we know as the Internet today with the IPv4 addressing protocol and TCP/IP, etc.

True, CERN is a .gov funded entity, but is more like the tollway commissions - funded but not run by .gov. Besides, they picked up what the geeks at DARPA started on their own and enhanced it to a more commercially viable state.

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

funded but not run by .gov. Besides, they picked up what the geeks at DARPA started on their own and enhanced it to a more commercially viable state.

And that is exactly what I am advocating. Seed money for geeks to do their thing, and then tax breaks for entrepreneurs to run with it. Nothing more.
FQ13

[alfsauve]

I got what you're saying, FQ.

I do disagree with the sales tax thing.    Sales taxes are state laws and one state has no jurisdiction over retailer in another state.  Since most states put the responsibility for collecting sales tax on the seller, they have no way to enforce the collection.

This is NOT a new phenomenon with the Internet.  It has been around since mail order.   (Or was that Western Union order and Well Fargo delivery?)

Now if a retailer has facilities within a state, the state does have jurisdiction and most retailers will collect the appropriate sales tax.

A few states have expanded their laws that now make it the responsibility of the BUYER to pay the sales tax if the retailer doesn't.  Of course enforcing such a law is rather difficult.

[fightingquaker13]

I got what you're saying, FQ.

I do disagree with the sales tax thing.    Sales taxes are state laws and one state has no jurisdiction over retailer in another state.  Since most states put the responsibility for collecting sales tax on the seller, they have no way to enforce the collection.

This is NOT a new phenomenon with the Internet.  It has been around since mail order.   (Or was that Western Union order and Well Fargo delivery?)

Now if a retailer has facilities within a state, the state does have jurisdiction and most retailers will collect the appropriate sales tax.

A few states have expanded their laws that now make it the responsibility of the BUYER to pay the sales tax if the retailer doesn't.  Of course enforcing such a law is rather difficult.

In theory you should be paying sales tax on catalog orders. It is your responsibility to report those purchases and pay the taxes. Obviously it is unenforceable, but it is still the law. Congress exempted internet sales from state sales taxes for interstate sales under Article I powers. So, if you order from Midway with a check from the catalog, you should send Ga. a check. Pay visa online and you owe them nothing. Kind of ironic since if a state tax collector wanted to collect this tax it would be easier from internet sales than catalogs.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

You talk as if the internet was a .gov planned program. It was not. Yes, the earliest infrastructure was heavily based on DoD infrastructure, specifically the DARPA computers. But it was market-driven - the DARPA geeks wanted to communicate more easily with each other, and trends in the computer hobbyest world were beginning to move into more enhanced communications other than single user BBS'.

The actual telecomm protocols were worked out in DARPA by people desperately trying to hide the work from their own management, as it wasn't considered to be true "work". The folks at CERN then picked up the banner and ran with it into what we know as the Internet today with the IPv4 addressing protocol and TCP/IP, etc.

True, CERN is a .gov funded entity, but is more like the tollway commissions - funded but not run by .gov. Besides, they picked up what the geeks at DARPA started on their own and enhanced it to a more commercially viable state.

It was still gov needs that drove computer advances making the processing power available, from Eniac for the Manhattan Project, through the space program and constant upgrades needed for code breaking by the NSA, (who operate the most powerful computers on the planet and will probably be the first to apply quantum computing. )

[billt]

From a Chevy Volt with $h!tty batteries, to the Manhattan Project. Only on the DRTV Forum!