Firearm choices

[ronlarimer]

Recently I have been thinking a lot about "tactical" firearms, "tactical" clothing, "tactical" gear et cetera and the more I think about it, the more that I think tactical for some is black, bloated and built by the lowest bidder.

For example a "tactical" M4 built for night ops could easily be a 9lb gun that would be completely the wrong choice for you or me.  Or 5.11, blackhawk, insert name here might be well suited for a XE guy in the sandbox, but for me it is a bunch of unneeded pockets in a non-stylish form at the mall.

As a group we frequently make pragmatic statements like...  "Cover or concealment is determined by the incoming rounds" or "the right bullet/caliber/gun is determined by the target." ... but I don't think we always think though our gear choices that way.

For example...  I like my training gear (and everyday wear) to be light weight, tough, allow easy movement, to not have too much excess fabric, have very limited stretch and breath.  More often than not these requirements can be met as well at the mall as by a tactical company.

Not thinking about any certain gun, what would you want out of a firearm in the following groups?

Every Day Carry
Home Defense Pistol
Home Defense Long Gun
Hunting Long Gun
Shooting Sports Gun

Things that should be considered are size (H,W,D), weight, capacity, penetration, manual of arms, balance, shot to shot time, cost acceptable reliability.  You should not list a caliber, an action type or manufacturer.

I think we may see that our needs/wants and our purchase choices may not line up.

[mkm]

Things that should be considered are size (H,W,D), weight, capacity, penetration, manual of arms, balance, shot to shot time, cost acceptable reliability.  You should not list a caliber, an action type or manufacturer.

I think we may see that our needs/wants and our purchase choices may not line up.

Do you want exact numbers? 

I'll probably get back later with more details.  I was just just curious about how detailed you want.

Also, why don't you want action type?  I would think that the differences between single shot, bolt, pump, and auto would be important and could vary for each of your categories.

[Timothy]

My tactical gear is blue jeans, a t-shirt, Merrel hiking shoes, a decent gun belt, OWB slide holster and a Sig P228 in 9mm with a Kershaw Blur covered by a cotton flannel shirt.  I add a barn coat for colder weather and will throw an extra mag in a pocket.

Tactical here in New England is anything that says your just another guy.

I see a lot of guys that wear "tactical" gear and it screams "GUN!"...I tend to stay away from that kind of gear!

[Dakotaranger]

While I'll disagree on tactical clothing, mainly because I'm a hunter and a mountain biker.  I want stuff that will take a beating.  The first pair of 5.11 ATACs I bought was because my hunting boots didn't fit and I was going to need a black pair of shoes.  Since then I've bought a few 5.11 cargo pants just because they have taken a beating out in the badlands where Wrangler cargo pants won't.  I've been using a RUSH 24 pack because I can get a bladder in it and attach an IFAK.  I'm all about multisusing my gear AND no I don't have any 'tacticool shirts.' I don't have any need for those.  

I'm finding that I'm carrying a 4 in .45 more than my Government model.
Long gun ability to deliver a large volume of fire in a short amount of time.  I live in a place where I don't have to worry about over penitration so my semiauto rifle works fine.
Hunting I packed around a .30-06 this year but might go back to a lever action next.
Sporting something I can send a ton of rounds down range cheaply

[Dakotaranger]

My tactical gear is blue jeans, a t-shirt, Merrel hiking shoes, a decent gun belt, OWB slide holster and a Sig P228 in 9mm with a Kershaw Blur covered by a cotton flannel shirt.  I add a barn coat for colder weather and will throw an extra mag in a pocket.

Tactical here in New England is anything that says your just another guy.

I see a lot of guys that wear "tactical" gear and it screams "GUN!"...I tend to stay away from that kind of gear!

I don't know if that's true.  I've gone past the PD so many times and they don't seam too interested.

[Sponsor]

[ronlarimer]

Do you want exact numbers? 

I'll probably get back later with more details.  I was just just curious about how detailed you want.

Also, why don't you want action type?  I would think that the differences between single shot, bolt, pump, and auto would be important and could vary for each of your categories.

Jeff Coopers description of a scout rifle is a good level of detail, minus the bolt action requirement.

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.  Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type.
Caliber: Ability to take down a man sized target at 400yds
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups)

The reason I specifically said no action definition is that I think for most people, single shot probably never meets the need, bolt may, and pump or lever will almost always be as good as a semi auto when examined objectively.  (Unless another factor is included.)

I really want to get your thoughts are on the requirements as opposed to the solutions.

[Timothy]

True Dakotaranger, but you live in North Dakota, not Massachusetts.

When I'm in New Hampshire, I could care less!  Here in town I stay discreet.  I don't need any hassles from anyone.

[mkm]

Jeff Coopers description of a scout rifle is a good level of detail, minus the bolt action requirement.

The reason I specifically said no action definition is that I think for most people, single shot probably never meets the need, bolt may, and pump or lever will almost always be as good as a semi auto when examined objectively.  (Unless another factor is included.)

I really want to get your thoughts are on the requirements as opposed to the solutions.

Thanks for the example.  I can give a pretty general description of what I want, but that level of detail will take some thinking and maybe a little research.  I look forward to the responses.

[ronlarimer]

While I'll disagree on tactical clothing, mainly because I'm a hunter and a mountain biker.  I want stuff that will take a beating.  The first pair of 5.11 ATACs I bought was because my hunting boots didn't fit and I was going to need a black pair of shoes.  Since then I've bought a few 5.11 cargo pants just because they have taken a beating out in the badlands where Wrangler cargo pants won't.  I've been using a RUSH 24 pack because I can get a bladder in it and attach an IFAK.  I'm all about multisusing my gear AND no I don't have any 'tacticool shirts.' I don't have any need for those.  

I'm finding that I'm carrying a 4 in .45 more than my Government model.
Long gun ability to deliver a large volume of fire in a short amount of time.  I live in a place where I don't have to worry about over penitration so my semiauto rifle works fine.
Hunting I packed around a .30-06 this year but might go back to a lever action next.
Sporting something I can send a ton of rounds down range cheaply

This is my point, I think we get too caught up in the what instead of the why...  Why wouldn't mountain climbing gear or carharts be tough enough?  Why a re 4" .45?  Is it because you have determined that 8 rds with a slim reload is better than a double stack? and a bullet with a larger cross section was better that one moving faster?  What is a "large volume of fire in a short amount of time."  10 rounds in under 5 sec?  What does semi-auto have to do with over penetration?

[philw]