I.D.ing the murderer

[Solus]

I wasn't calling "you" an idiot, I was calling any person who needlessly intervenes in what had been a simple robbery an idiot.
As for calling me a coward, call me anything you like.
I've been called worse names by better people.

I guess the disagreement is about what is needless intervention.  In my thinking, anytime someone threatens someone by pointing a gun at them during the commission of a crime, intervention becomes immediately necessary and should be performed as soon as it can be reasonably done.

Not being a legal scholar I don't know all the definitions, but I don't consider armed robbery as simple robbery?

As for calling you names...take THIS    YOU DEMOCRAT!!!

[MikeBjerum]

Solus,

Very rare that you are ever going to get me to say "shoot him" in a debate like this.  It is a personal decision made when actively involved, and I am not going open myself to legal issues if you, someone else, or I am ever involved in a shooting.  I don't need to be responsible or held responsible for advising or speculating it is cut and dried simple.

[Solus]

Solus,

Very rare that you are ever going to get me to say "shoot him" in a debate like this.  It is a personal decision made when actively involved, and I am not going open myself to legal issues if you, someone else, or I am ever involved in a shooting.  I don't need to be responsible or held responsible for advising or speculating it is cut and dried simple.

Understood

[JLawson]

... I would choose to intervene.  To me the life of that clerk, as flawed and dark as it might, unbeknownst to me, be is worth the risk of my life. ...

Good debate here... and this is something we should all have thought about before carrying a gun.

Solus, I have a question about your statement quoted above.  Since I don't know your personal or family situation, please forgive me if this question doesn't apply.  You may be willing to risk your life for a stranger but what about your wife, kids, grandkids, friends, and everyone else whose lives are touched by your being here on this earth?  Are you also willing to risk their pain, sorrow, and grief for the stranger?

I'm not judging your position - I just wonder if you considered the "ripple effect" of your choice.

[BBJohnnyT]

yeah...I sort of hijacked the thread to take it from a tactical question to a moral one.

Your answer is interesting. 

The difference you specify implies that you would act differently if the life/well being of the person under the gun meant more to you than the life of stranger who happened to be the clerk.

The others here who have posted reasons for not getting involved.  Many of those reasons would still apply if the clerk was a loved one of yours.  With that, would you still avoid getting involved?

I don't need an answer unless you choose to give one....   We just need to know what and why we think what we do.

I have two reasons why I would never get involved in a violent encounter involving only strangers. The first I already stated but will reiterate again. I cannot tell with absolute certainty who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. It may look clear but looks can sometimes be deceiving. I'm not willing to shoot an undercover cop if I misjudge the event. Now if it is 99.9% clear who the bad guy is, I will still not get involved because of my second reason. And that is my primary duty to my own family. My wife and kids depend on me. Just because I insert myself into that situation doesn't mean it's going to get resolved my way. I could pump several rounds into the criminal but I can't guarantee that will take him down or wont have enough fight left in him to fire on me and possibly kill me. If that makes me an anti-hero coward, so be it. I'll be alive and my kids will still have a dad. Like I said, I'm a sheepdog for my flock, not another flock.

[Sponsor]

[Solus]

I have two reasons why I would never get involved in a violent encounter involving only strangers. The first I already stated but will reiterate again. I cannot tell with absolute certainty who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. It may look clear but looks can sometimes be deceiving. I'm not willing to shoot an undercover cop if I misjudge the event. Now if it is 99.9% clear who the bad guy is, I will still not get involved because of my second reason. And that is my primary duty to my own family. My wife and kids depend on me. Just because I insert myself into that situation doesn't mean it's going to get resolved my way. I could pump several rounds into the criminal but I can't guarantee that will take him down or wont have enough fight left in him to fire on me and possibly kill me. If that makes me an anti-hero coward, so be it. I'll be alive and my kids will still have a dad. Like I said, I'm a sheepdog for my flock, not another flock.

I do understand your position and I had inferred it from your previous comments.

But now I ask this.   Instead of it being a stranger with the gun pointed at them, it was your loved one instead, how long would you hesitate and, perhaps, allow the one pointing the gun to fire while considering if he was an undercover cop or not?

I know the situation is unlikely, but if you did walk into a room and see a stranger pointing a loved one.  How would your response differ?   And it might be useful (it is to me, but I delve in detail about my motives) to understand why there is a difference.

I am not judging.  I have my decided my "moral course of action" and I hope, if the time comes, I can live up to it.  I have done so before, but now with firearms involved, only bare hands.

I do not judge another's "moral choices" except where they intersect the law, which is basically  lying, cheating, stealing and murder....which also happen to be my moral choices.   However, where to worship, Who to worship, who to love and what to put into your mouth are not "moral choices" that should also be laws.
 

[Solus]

Good debate here... and this is something we should all have thought about before carrying a gun.

Solus, I have a question about your statement quoted above.  Since I don't know your personal or family situation, please forgive me if this question doesn't apply.  You may be willing to risk your life for a stranger but what about your wife, kids, grandkids, friends, and everyone else whose lives are touched by your being here on this earth?  Are you also willing to risk their pain, sorrow, and grief for the stranger?

I'm not judging your position - I just wonder if you considered the "ripple effect" of your choice.

I do understand the point of the question and have considered it myself.  I am divorced with no children, so I am responsible to myself and my conscience.

But I do recall a news event I saw.  It was about a accident where a passenger car collided with a tanker truck.

The occupants of both vehicles were freed except for a 5 year old girl trapped in the car under the truck.  The tank was leaking and had caught on fire and was spreading towards the car.  

A fire department was working the accident and they had several men at the car working to free the girl.  The fire was spreading and growing and got close enough to the car that the chief called the men out.   All but one went.  He remained to stay with the girl.  

The firemen focused all the hoses on the pair under the truck and it exploded.  Both the fireman and the girl survived unharmed by the fire.

Afterwards the fireman gave a statement.  He was married and had a family.  He said that he also had a little girl about the same age as the girl trapped.  He said he had thought of his family loosing him, but the girl was so frightened, he just could not leave her to face death, and likely die, alone.  He said he had  hopped that if he daughter was ever in the same situation, that someone would be there to be with her.

.......

I know it isn't the same situation, but his concerns about his family were the same.  He decided to risk his family loosing him to do what he felt was the right thing to do.

Maybe if he didn't have a family, a little girl about that age, he might have been more prone to leave the girl alone and withdraw when the call to do so came.

In any case, there is more at work than just the risk of your family loosing you involved in all of this.

And as far as being a hero goes, it might be said that the fireman took the easy way...he stayed with the girl because his emotions overwhelmed him when he should have be strong enough to leave and honor his duty to his family.  

My intent is not to blame someone for their choice, but just to have those choices considered ......in more depth than most  non-compulsive folks would care to.  

[BBJohnnyT]

If it wasn't a stranger, but a loved one, facing a shooter, I would do everything in my power to take them down without hesitation. I thought I was clear but I guess not. Again, if the stranger was a clear innocent child, I would get involved. That's my moral line in the sand.

[JLawson]

... so I am responsible to myself and my conscience. ...

Thank you... I appreciate the thoughtful and well-composed response.

It's a uniquely human thing we do - weighing and balancing duty, morality, spirituality, legality, patriotism, and ethics.  We each prioritize these according to some instinctive, genetic, or divine recipe that leaves us prepared to play our appointed role.  I start each day with a prayer for strength, courage, and receptiveness to God's direction.

I believe that in a critical event, or a moment of deep despair, we all have the ability to do what's right if we only listen.  Some refer to it as a "little voice" or a "gut feeling" - I prefer to think of it as God's suggestion.  The free will of man always allows for the opportunity to mess things up but if we prayerfully strive to do His will then we will be provided all that is required when called upon to take action.

[PegLeg45]

Thank you... I appreciate the thoughtful and well-composed response.

It's a uniquely human thing we do - weighing and balancing duty, morality, spirituality, legality, patriotism, and ethics.  We each prioritize these according to some instinctive, genetic, or divine recipe that leaves us prepared to play our appointed role.  I start each day with a prayer for strength, courage, and receptiveness to God's direction.

I believe that in a critical event, or a moment of deep despair, we all have the ability to do what's right if we only listen.  Some refer to it as a "little voice" or a "gut feeling" - I prefer to think of it as God's suggestion.  The free will of man always allows for the opportunity to mess things up but if we prayerfully strive to do His will then we will be provided all that is required when called upon to take action.

+1

Well said.