I guess this explains all the DHS Ammo Buys...

[mrmatt2you]

One of the things I remember when I was shot with the S.S. a few years ago, they shot the same ammo that they carried.  They get to practice with what they carry.   Where you and I have to use less expensive ammo so we can shoot more, they get to use the good stuff for target practice.   I find it a waste of money that they are doing target practice with Federal Hyrda-Shok for the qualfication.  That is my only explaination why they would need so many.   I just wish I could train with what I carried, if I did that, I would have about the same deficit the gov't is running.  

[twyacht]

Read the article on the FBI training.  They just raised the number of rounds per agent per qual by ten.  That alone could equal a million rounds a year for a department.

They don't order different ammo for duty and training, it is in fact the same ammo.

And this is just simply SOP?

I understand spending taxpayer dollars gets you the "good ammo" but cite another build up and procurement req. of this magnitude?

[jnevis]

That's just it, it ISN'T a build up, its they way they have ordered ammo from day one.  Every so many years a contract is let for a given number of rounds per year for x years.  A year or two before the contract runs out, they send out a Request For Proposal to get bids on the next version of the contract.  The major difference is it used to be up to the individual agency to do it, now DHS is doing the contract for multiple agencies.  If the end result is the same, but the COST is lowered does it matter if its one contract for say 20million rounds or ten contracts for 2 million rounds?  Especially at the end of the day when it only means an agent shoots 100 rds a month, if that.

[Magoo541]

Jnevis we've been here before and it got old quick last time.  BUT DHS has 210,000'ish employees that includes FEMA, ICE, TSA and the Coast Guard none of which are traditional "combat arms"-say along the lines of the USMC or Army Infantry where their job is to shoot bad guys. 

While there may be some truth to the amount of ammunition consumed in training do really you have NO problem with TSA, FEMA or Officers in the Science and Technology Directorate training, qualifying and carrying guns? 

[jnevis]

Jnevis we've been here before and it got old quick last time.  BUT DHS has 210,000'ish employees that includes FEMA, ICE, TSA and the Coast Guard none of which are traditional "combat arms"-say along the lines of the USMC or Army Infantry where their job is to shoot bad guys. 

While there may be some truth to the amount of ammunition consumed in training do really you have NO problem with TSA, FEMA or Officers in the Science and Technology Directorate training, qualifying and carrying guns? 

Those departments, except TSA in its current form, have had law enforcement powers of some form and variety, although small in number, for decades.  Last time I checked ANY police officer, no matter where or for whom they work were REQUIRED to qualify with a weapon as a requirement of employment.  They don't have to be "combat arms," but since you brought it up the Coast Guard very much is a military organization.  They're chartered to support the US Navy abroad in a time of war and have been since they're inception.  USCG personnel are currently deployed to the Horn of Africa and Middle East conducting maritime interdiction aboard US Navy vessels, since the Navy cannot arrest or detain a vessel but the CG can for inspection.  You tell the ICE/CBP/USCG agents in South Florida or along the border they aren't supposed to shoot at bad guys beacaue they aren't "combat troops."  Following your logic, all police officers shouldn't carry a gun, or qualify with them, they aren't combat troops either.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Following your logic, all police officers shouldn't carry a gun, or qualify with them, they aren't combat troops either.

Considering how many innocents they have shot in recent months that might not be a bad idea.

[jnevis]

I wasn't going there but....  slight thread drift ahead...
I read somewhere that police departments in areas where the leadership is anti-gun have much lower hit percentages than areas that are pro-gun.  It makes sense since most police agencies are made up of relatively local recruits.  If there isn't a lot of familiarity with firearms to begin with, mastery requires a lot more work.  Add to that an administration that wants as little to do with firearms will by non-action or out right disapproval minimize training time/resources. 
Those same agencies do not allow force on force training, either with Simunitions or "laser tag" so then you end up with Blue on Blue or civilians getting shot at since there is no "(brain) muscle memory" to fall back on.  That is the reason the Navy built Top Gun, so fighter pilots could see "combat" before they actually went to a war zone and couldn't react to a threat properly.  If you've never experienced how to do target identification under stress, your brain can't process it when it needs to.  Some forward thinking instructors have started implementing IDPA/USPSA type stages into training to get the students to "think through the problem" but on a very limited basis, and only after years of trying to convinve the leadership to let them.

The Fed agencies are no different.  The training is focused on the lowest common denominator.  They can only train to minimums.  If a class is full of students from say NYC or CA, the overall skill level is lower than if they were from say AZ or TX.  How long did it take for the FBI to teach CQB instead of, effectively, bullseye shooting at 25 yds, while most of the shootings were less than 7 yds?  The standards are fairly low overall, and can be drastically different from place to place.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.  On one hand they get hammered for ordering/using ammo for training but on the other they get an earfull since officers aren't HITTING targets.  The only way for them to get hits is to practice, but then it "raises questions" when they ask for the materials to do so.

[JC5123]

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.  On one hand they get hammered for ordering/using ammo for training but on the other they get an earfull since officers aren't HITTING targets.  The only way for them to get hits is to practice, but then it "raises questions" when they ask for the materials to do so.

I think the only reason that it is raising questions now is because of the outright hostility with which the "enemies of the state" are being treated. Anyone who disagrees with this regime is labeled a wacko, racist, terrorist. And with the absolute hysteria to try to disarm the citizenry, I have to admit I'm a little curious also. Why would you order 50 years worth of ammo when #1 you are beyond broke, #2 you have no idea if we will still be using cartridge ammunition in 50 years. That is FAR beyond the foreseeable future. UNLESS you have other plans. I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I have thought for years now that this regime is trying to incite some sort of insurrection so that they could put the real screws to the populace.

[jnevis]

I think the only reason that it is raising questions now is because of the outright hostility with which the "enemies of the state" are being treated. Anyone who disagrees with this regime is labeled a wacko, racist, terrorist. And with the absolute hysteria to try to disarm the citizenry, I have to admit I'm a little curious also. Why would you order 50 years worth of ammo when #1 you are beyond broke, #2 you have no idea if we will still be using cartridge ammunition in 50 years. That is FAR beyond the foreseeable future. UNLESS you have other plans. I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I have thought for years now that this regime is trying to incite some sort of insurrection so that they could put the real screws to the populace.

Where do you get 50 years worth of ammunition?

The contract is for five years @ 150 million rounds per year for training ranges.
They use 15 million rounds at FLETC alone in one year.  With the stated 70,000 agents trained that is less than 250 rds per agent.
The FBI course is now 60 rounds per CoF.  If we round the number of personnel in the FBI to 30K (actual is 36, but not all are armed) that's 1.8 million rounds to shoot it ONCE, but they typically shoot it twice, twice a year, so around 7.2 million rounds for basic quals.
ICE gets 90million rounds under the same contract, and if they only have 18K armed agents (actual is just shy of 21K) that's 5000 rounds per agent per year.

I know that whole fact vs emotion thing gets you every time...

[JC5123]

Where do you get 50 years worth of ammunition?

FTA: 1.6 BILLION rounds.

I know that whole fact vs emotion thing gets you every time...

I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I have thought for years now that this regime is trying to incite some sort of insurrection so that they could put the real screws to the populace.

I'm begging you to prove me wrong here.