European Jews circa 1937

[twyacht]

This is Gestapo tactics jn.....This is a SWAT teams, SRT's wet dream. Free reign. GET THE BAD GUY!!!!....ANY suspicion, any high impact probability is exploited to the detrement of the long haired white women, or overweight dudes following orders to "shelter in place".

Given your background, I can understand that a loyalty is to back the LEO's that "did what was needed" to pursue, and secure the perimeter.

It's a slippery slope that we're on....After the post-Katrina BS, many vowed and than won, the subsequent lawsuit that followed, to not let this happen again....

But it did.....in spades.....and the sheeple went along with it....and cheered. Over ONE 19 year old. or ONE Chris Dorner.

This would not have happened in Montana, the Carolina's, most of the Southern States, and Central & Northern Florida.

We are out of phase as a nation, and it is wrong.

[jnevis]

That still doesn't answer my original question.  There is no "good" option here.  The cops need to find an armed suspect that has already set off a device, thrown grenades and shot at cops.  They don't know what condition the guy is in.  Does he have a hostage, more explosives?  I don't think any of you could have done any better with the information you had.  Did they go in a heavy when they may not have needed to? Sure.  You all spout off how you'd have a gun and defend your home.  Isn't that what they were doing, just a lot more of them? 
One 19 y/o with an unknown quantity of explosives, or a well armed former police officer, yes, I do think that given the same scenario ANYWHERE else in the US the results would have been similar. 

TW you bring up my background,  I deal with 4th Amendment issues on a fairly regular basis even now.  Some of the things I work on we have to get approval from the lawyers before we can show it to the engineers and operators. 

You don't even KNOW what Gestapo tactics really are.  We live in an open society and so there is a constant balacing act to weight personal freedoms to threats.  Try spending some time in China, Russia, or even Israel.  There are real threats out there and there is no amount of "feel good" BS that is going to stop a dedicated terrorist from causing harm.  You all applauded the NRA's push for an armed somebody in schools but then complain when the police have to look for a threat they've positively identified.  I keep saying it, but you can't have it both ways.  The only way to stop a terrorist is to find them before they attack.  Otherwise you're just picking up the pieces, just like calling the cops after the robbery.   We are eventually going to either have to change how we operatoe as a nation or we are going to keep having bombs go off.

[Solus]

Well, jnevis, you make some points about this being the only way to get the job done with police.

In my opinion they are not good points.

If the only way for the police to do their job is for them to act like Jack Booted Thugs, then my solution is to get rid of the cops.

I've always said I'd rather live in anarchy than a dictatorship, and a dictatorship is where this is heading.

Did you see the video some time ago about the ex-service man who was killed by police?

The innocent citizen responded to his front door being kicked in by getting his AR and confronting the intruders.  He was shot dead with an over abundance of firepower, over 100 rounds fired.   He was found still alive with his AR in his hands with the safety on.   He had never fired his weapon.  He died in that hallway as the police would not allow the EMTs to enter for 20 minutes...not sure what would motivate that refusal of life saving aid.

Now, without seeing what happened before the door was kicked in, I cannot say how justified that action was.

BUT...the video clearly shows one of the officers not involved in the entry, but who was standing out front running up to the door behind the entry team, sticking his handgun in the door and firing off a few rounds.

I can think of several reasons for an individual to want to "get in on the kill" but none of them are near what I would want to see from a Police Officer.

I can't help but suspect that those 100s of rounds fired came from that same attitude.

Now I see how the house to house search went in Watertown and cannot help but suspect that same attitude at work here.

And, as you say, they had the whole world watching and that could be the only reason innocents weren't gunned down instead of just having their rights trampled.

[tombogan03884]

That still doesn't answer my original question.  There is no "good" option here.  The cops need to find an armed suspect that has already set off a device, thrown grenades and shot at cops.  They don't know what condition the guy is in.  Does he have a hostage, more explosives?  I don't think any of you could have done any better with the information you had.  Did they go in a heavy when they may not have needed to? Sure.  You all spout off how you'd have a gun and defend your home.  Isn't that what they were doing, just a lot more of them?  
One 19 y/o with an unknown quantity of explosives, or a well armed former police officer, yes, I do think that given the same scenario ANYWHERE else in the US the results would have been similar.  

TW you bring up my background,  I deal with 4th Amendment issues on a fairly regular basis even now.  Some of the things I work on we have to get approval from the lawyers before we can show it to the engineers and operators.  

You don't even KNOW what Gestapo tactics really are.  We live in an open society and so there is a constant balacing act to weight personal freedoms to threats.  Try spending some time in China, Russia, or even Israel.  There are real threats out there and there is no amount of "feel good" BS that is going to stop a dedicated terrorist from causing harm.  You all applauded the NRA's push for an armed somebody in schools but then complain when the police have to look for a threat they've positively identified.  I keep saying it, but you can't have it both ways.  The only way to stop a terrorist is to find them before they attack.  Otherwise you're just picking up the pieces, just like calling the cops after the robbery.   We are eventually going to either have to change how we operatoe as a nation or we are going to keep having bombs go off.

Tough shitsky.
Citizens Rights trump your "officer safety".
Or do you think the law only applies when it's convenient ?

[jnevis]

Tough shitsky.
Citizens Rights trump your "officer safety".
Or do you think the law only applies when it's convenient ?

This is not just "officer safety" since in this case specifically there is an identified threat to personal property and PUBLIC safety.


I can ask you the same question.   
Tom- you're so full of it you can't even fathom other points of view, let alone think of it yourself.  You are basically DiFi's poster boy for "right wing radical."

[Sponsor]

[jnevis]

I can ask you the same question.   
Tom- you're so full of it you can't even fathom other points of view, let alone think of it yourself.  You are basically DiFi's poster boy for "right wing radical."

Before you get your panties in a bunch, if I thought anyone on here was capable of more than running thier mouth, I would have pulled my membership a LONG time ago.  Not loosing MY job over an internet forum sorry.

[fatbaldguy]

, if I thought anyone on here was capable of more than running thier mouth,

I've been fired upon, and I've fired back.  My pucker string was so tight I couldn't crap for days.  I've been through multiple types of shooter training classes.  I decided I didn't like living looking over my shoulder, so I went elsewhere.  That doesn't mean I'm not capable of more than running my mouth.  I'm just cranky enough to not put up with any of 'that' sh!t anymore.  Come in my house by force, uninvited, and lead will fly.  Count on it.  I don't care who you are or what agency you might represent.

Will I die?  Probably.  Nobody gets out of here alive anyway.

[twyacht]

The police agencies around the country have steadily become more and more militarized. The days of the J. Edgar Hoover FBI, ATF, etc,......used to wear suits, now they wear MOLLE, with chest rigs and SPEC OPS military weapons, and all the flash bangs they can carry in their military vehicles.

Boston was not under lock-down, in essence it was under Martial Law. No business, no transportation, no travel, and not all those house to house searches had consent or a warrant. jn, you know it and we know it.

If this is the "new" pattern of LEO justification for "public safety", we got a problem. And I damn well know what Gestapo tactics are.

If my Great Grandfather were still alive in Hamburg, you could ask him how much der Fuerher paid him for his Duesenberg that was confiscated/stolen from him by some members of the Bundespolizei.

[tombogan03884]

This is not just "officer safety" since in this case specifically there is an identified threat to personal property and PUBLIC safety.


I can ask you the same question.  
Tom- you're so full of it you can't even fathom other points of view, let alone think of it yourself.  You are basically DiFi's poster boy for "right wing radical."

Actually I'm a moderate.
It's just that your so brainwashed you are part of the problem.

[jnevis]

You know Tom, if I'm part of the problem, I'm OK with that.  The fact that you posted that on the Internet proves I'm doing my job correctly.  It shows that, whther you believe it or not, you trust that the government is doing it's best to protect you.  You may not trust POTUS, Congress, or Cabinet but the simple fact of using the Internet, going shopping, or driving on the streets means that you have a level of trust/understanding that the worker bee government is functioning properly.  There are pages of attacks on this country every day.  Most are cyber, some are indications of future activity, and others we haven't even identified yet.  If you think that there aren't hundreds of Tsarnaev brothers out there looking for an opporunity to put a bomb up you a$$, you're a delusional fool.  Part of the issue with the Boston attack is they aren't tied to anyone we're looking at so there is no indications until they set off the device.  "Professional" terrorists leave a trail, the world is full of ametuers.  They only have to be right once.  The people trying to find/stop them have to be right every time.  I've been either actively participating in or supporting anti/counter-terorism for almost 20yrs, and what I'm seeing now doesn't concern me, it scares the living CRAP out of me.  Are we going to become like Israel, no.  We do need to take a serious look at the vulnerablities we have in our infrastructure and procedures.  You can say "Well I have a gun and will defend myself" all you want, you'll just have a gun in the blast radius.

FBG-That wasn't what I was referring to anyway.  If that's you're answer you're not the problem.