Author Topic: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers  (Read 25455 times)

PegLeg45

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No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« on: October 15, 2013, 11:43:50 AM »
Has anyone dealt with these guys?

They are similar to other companies that produce unfinished "80%" AR lowers, and the tools to finish them, except they are kevlar/polymer instead of aluminum.

http://www.eplowers.com/

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

fightingquaker13

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2013, 01:09:04 PM »
Just say no Peg. I love plastic guns as you well know. But among folks I trust on a dedicated AR board, not ARF, but AR15 armory, no one likes these thing. Hell, science guys have gotten out the math to say why while they're great for pistols, in rifles not so much. This isn't just folks who like Tupperware vs rust bucket guys stuff. There is a serious level of distrust over failure in normal use, not worrying about taking it to the sand box. So, I advise saying no and getting a standard lower. There are plenty out there and for reasonable prices.  Do you want a completed lower or a stripped one? There is a group buy I can get in on for a stripped Anderson if you want a DIY project.

Solus

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2013, 01:53:46 PM »
Just say no Peg. I love plastic guns as you well know. But among folks I trust on a dedicated AR board, not ARF, but AR15 armory, no one likes these thing. Hell, science guys have gotten out the math to say why while they're great for pistols, in rifles not so much. This isn't just folks who like Tupperware vs rust bucket guys stuff. There is a serious level of distrust over failure in normal use, not worrying about taking it to the sand box. So, I advise saying no and getting a standard lower. There are plenty out there and for reasonable prices.  Do you want a completed lower or a stripped one? There is a group buy I can get in on for a stripped Anderson if you want a DIY project.

FQ...do you know of any of the guys have had experience with the polymer lower? 

For sure I'd not be the first one to buy one, but I'd sure like to see one put through the wringer rather than just predictions of how bad they will do.

Most of Global Warming is from the predictions of science guys...not saying they are wrong and I'd Just Say No too..until there is proof they will hold up.


Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

PegLeg45

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 01:58:23 PM »
I can get a stripped lower here in GA for around $80 + $25 for the FFL transfer.

I wasn't thinking about buying one as much as just mostly wondering if anyone had tried it, mainly for the experience in finishing the machine work. This set-up looks more user-friendly than the other frames out there that require a butt-load of "extra" equipment and tools to finish.

There is also the appeal of the DIY and no FFL transfer and paper trail thing.

I myself would probably never run a polymer frame rifle.... although, after many years using it in an industrial facility, I do know that if the properties of the material is made right, it is durable. I have seen "plastic" that would cause steel to wear out first (it acted like sandpaper against the steel).


"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

fightingquaker13

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 02:23:22 PM »
I can get a stripped lower here in GA for around $80 + $25 for the FFL transfer.

I wasn't thinking about buying one as much as just mostly wondering if anyone had tried it, mainly for the experience in finishing the machine work. This set-up looks more user-friendly than the other frames out there that require a butt-load of "extra" equipment and tools to finish.

There is also the appeal of the DIY and no FFL transfer and paper trail thing.

I myself would probably never run a polymer frame rifle.... although, after many years using it in an industrial facility, I do know that if the properties of the material is made right, it is durable. I have seen "plastic" that would cause steel to wear out first (it acted like sandpaper against the steel).




That lower is classed as a firearm by ATF. You still have to fill out the form and do the background check through a dealer on it. The rest is unrestricted.

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:04:53 PM »

Solus

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2013, 02:30:13 PM »
That lower is classed as a firearm by ATF. You still have to fill out the form and do the background check through a dealer on it. The rest is unrestricted.

That is only one a fully completed lower.

There is a percentage complete where it is not yet legally a firearm.  My guess is that the 80% qualifies and a  non-firearm.

If you complete it yourself, you have made yourself a firearm and get a bye of the FFL stuff.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

fightingquaker13

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2013, 05:30:51 PM »
I think you're wrong Solus, and its a hell of a thing to be wrong about as it can buy you a free vacation in club fed. I'll do some looking and post back.

Solus

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 06:59:12 PM »
Here is what I have found.  I was and FFL dealer in the early 80's.

Unregistered Weapons

The trick is to have an unregistered weapon, and specifically for this post, an unregistered weapon that you legally built yourself.

On an AR-15, the serialized portion of the firearm is the lower receiver. That is the only part that requires an FFL transfer (background check, etc) to purchase. Everything else can be purchased without an FFL, but without the lower receiver, these parts are just paperweights.

So in order to have an unregistered AR-15, you must have a lower receiver that does not have a serial number, and therefore does not require an FFL. The easiest way to do this is to get an unfinished lower receiver, also called an 80% lower receiver (I’ve also seen 95% lower receivers), and finish the receiver yourself.
What is an 80% Lower Receiver?

An 80% lower receiver is a partially completed piece of material that requires special tooling and skills to be completed and considered a firearm.
Legality

How can this possibly be legal?


I'll try to find the paragraph in the law when I can.

Take a look at what is required to finish the lower.   One item is a Drill Press...  the holes need to by drilled.

It takes some work, but (and this is without legal reference) what it gets you is a weapon that is not registered and is not required by law to be registered.   Again, this is without a current legal reference.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

PegLeg45

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013, 07:01:08 PM »
Solus is correct.

If a receiver is 80% or less "finished" and still requires machine work, it is not considered a weapon. I do not know which (maybe all?) states allow it, but if a firearm is home made, for the maker's sole use, and never sold (that is the key) it is legal.

Quote
Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html#gca-manufacturing

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

TAB

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 07:53:14 PM »
my understanding was its legal, you  can not sell it and you must seralize it.  I know you can not do it for any one else.  You can not produce anything illegal or requring a stamp( with out get a stamp)  so no making a machine gun, unless you have a lic to do so and selling strickly to leo and the miltary.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

 

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