Author Topic: James Brady  (Read 18734 times)

Rastus

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2014, 06:33:57 AM »
<snip>
I have been a gun owner since before 1968 - so I understand where you are coming from.  I respectfully submit that you are not recognizing how strong we are right now.  We have NEVER BEEN STRONGER.  For the first time ever, after a bunch of high profile shootings, the other side got nothing.  The only question is: How will we use that strength?

One option is to simply play defense.  <snip>

Again, THIS WOULD BE OUR BILL.  We write it - they don't.   We would be using our strength to both preempt their best argument and push back many current laws.   While good people can and do disagree, I think that this would be the best uses of our current strength.

Me too on the '68 thing, a H&R Topper .410 shotgun.  I remember when I could mail order a 30-30 from Sears and get it back in the mail...I also remember you could go to the feed store and buy dynamite and nobody cared.

Yes we have never been stronger since the GCA debacle in the 60's and I attribute that to the concealed carry fight.  Concealed carry was an offensive struggle.  The Uncle Fudds were pissing down both legs wanting to stay below the radar thinking bringing up guns was going to cause us to lose them all...or at least a large portion.  Well, we got concealed carry by demanding it without conciliation and we won and here we are.  Uncle Fudd was wrong and you are right...we've never been stronger at least in my lifetime (past two years up for debate).  And we lose with the "prevent defense" which Uncle Fudd had been employing until we took the NRA back in the Cincinnati Revolution and pushed concealed carry.

Now I agree we write bills but we give them nothing.  If they want us to have, for instance, personal NICS checks to close the patently false and misleading "gun show loophole" we make it illegal to transfer, aw heck, let's just say a car without one...cars not being a Constitutional right and we close that damned car loophole and keep crazies from being behind the wheel.  We give them nothing but hell and leave them as the poster child and that is all I'm willing to be conciliatory over.

And more to the point...my rights are not what a court says they are per se' depending on what the topic is.  They can say, for instance, you have no right to breathe air and need to pay a tax for air....would you follow that?  It's like people saying they will "die" for someone's right to ______ (insert right in blank) and it's all really just hand waving to impress people with their caring which really does not exist. 
.   
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
-William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)
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tombogan03884

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2014, 06:44:37 AM »
Vince, You are the one who does not get it.
Unfortunately there are far to many gun owners like you.
Your reasoning is shallow.
The anti's have nothing "tangible" or otherwise to offer.
They can only agree to take less, for now.

Hazcat

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2014, 08:16:42 AM »
Tell ya what, Vince.

Instead of putting the onus on the citizen who wants NONE of this nonsense lets put it where it belongs, on the government.

I don't have to prove I am 'allowed' to own a gun, the 2A secures that right for me.  If the government wants to ensure felons don't get guns then the government needs to make it harder for them to get guns not harder for me the legal, Citizen.

Here's an idea.  I have several types of government ID (driver's license, VA card, etc) so if the government decided I was not allowed to own a gun my ID should have a mark so stating.  If I want to buy a gun at an FFL I show my ID.  No mark? then I am good to go.

No sale if I cannot produce ID or if ID has a mark. Same goes for private sales.

That puts all of the onus on the government, as it should.
All tipoes and misspelings are copi-righted.  Pleeze do not reuse without ritten persimmons  :D

Solus

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2014, 09:07:19 AM »
I would rather that the government compile a database of firearms prohibited persons and FFLs download that database and down load updated at the start of each day. 

Then an offline application can access that database without anyone outside the FFL's shop knowing the request was made. 

No possibility that the request to purchase could be gathered and kept for any use...except locally where we already have to leave a paper trail.

Leave private sales alone.  No individual can verify that an ID is not a fake...and a seller who can legally buy firearms and intends to sell them illegally won't be checking IDs anyway.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

vincewarde

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2014, 10:48:25 AM »
Yes we have never been stronger since the GCA debacle in the 60's and I attribute that to the concealed carry fight.  Concealed carry was an offensive struggle.  The Uncle Fudds were pissing down both legs wanting to stay below the radar thinking bringing up guns was going to cause us to lose them all...or at least a large portion.  Well, we got concealed carry by demanding it without conciliation and we won and here we are.  Uncle Fudd was wrong and you are right...we've never been stronger at least in my lifetime (past two years up for debate).  And we lose with the "prevent defense" which Uncle Fudd had been employing until we took the NRA back in the Cincinnati Revolution and pushed concealed carry.

We won the political battle on concealed carry not only through hard work - but because many people own don't own a gun and will likely never apply for a permit support the right to carry.  This is especially true when talking about background checked and trained permit holders.  These folks think that, should they ever "need" a permit, they should be able to get one.  Many of these same people also believe that background checks should be expanded to most private transfers.

Quote
Now I agree we write bills but we give them nothing.  If they want us to have, for instance, personal NICS checks to close the patently false and misleading "gun show loophole" we make it illegal to transfer, aw heck, let's just say a car without one...cars not being a Constitutional right and we close that damned car loophole and keep crazies from being behind the wheel.  We give them nothing but hell and leave them as the poster child and that is all I'm willing to be conciliatory over.

We will NEVER convince the care of the anti-gun movement to give up their dream of UK style (or worse) gun control.  I have no illusions about this - but I submit to you that, by themselves, they pose little danger because they are so small.  Remember when Brady held a press conference and two reporters and one camera showed up?  One of the reporters and the camera were from NRA News!

The anti-gun movement is like a balloon.  It is nothing until it is inflated.  It gets inflated when people - many of whom can be reasoned with - rush in to inflate it.  Two things fill the balloon with air: Mass shootings and the issue of background checks.  That's why the antis have to disguise their registration bills as "background check" bills - registration is a loosing issue at a national level.  Background checks are a winning issue for them.

What Gura and I are suggesting is that we co-opt the only remaining issue that they can get significant support for.  This will prevent them from using it to get registration and other horrible provisions passed.  Witness what happened in Colorado.  I'm also suggesting that, in the same bill, we repeal a ton of bad gun laws passed in the last 80 years.  Put that bill on Obama's desk and we win either way.  If he vetoes a background check bill, even one with lots of pro-gun rights provisions, then it's going to be hard for him to raise the issue.  If he signs it, we get rid of a ton of very bad laws in exchange for giving up very little - since background checks would be available through FFLs, but would be completely optional.  On the other hand they would provide legal protection when selling to people we don't know.


Quote
And more to the point...my rights are not what a court says they are per se' depending on what the topic is.  They can say, for instance, you have no right to breathe air and need to pay a tax for air....would you follow that?  It's like people saying they will "die" for someone's right to ______ (insert right in blank) and it's all really just hand waving to impress people with their caring which really does not exist. 

While I understand where you are coming from - especially when it comes to unenforceable laws - in practical terms, SCOTUS decides what our constitutional protections are.  So far, no one here has been able to provide evidence that the current court is going to rule that NICS checks are an infringement under the 2nd Amendment.  Thank God we can use the 2nd Amendment as a firewall against really, really bad laws.  Ditto that we can use it to expand concealed carry.  But background checks - and by this I mean instant NICS checks - are a 100% political battle.  As I said earlier - I really hope that Gura and I are wrong and that we are able to stop Bloomberg when he swoops in with his pre-written law after the next high profile  mass shooting.

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #35 on: Today at 11:55:55 AM »

vincewarde

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2014, 11:00:15 AM »
Tell ya what, Vince.

Instead of putting the onus on the citizen who wants NONE of this nonsense lets put it where it belongs, on the government.

I don't have to prove I am 'allowed' to own a gun, the 2A secures that right for me.  If the government wants to ensure felons don't get guns then the government needs to make it harder for them to get guns not harder for me the legal, Citizen.

Here's an idea.  I have several types of government ID (driver's license, VA card, etc) so if the government decided I was not allowed to own a gun my ID should have a mark so stating.  If I want to buy a gun at an FFL I show my ID.  No mark? then I am good to go.

No sale if I cannot produce ID or if ID has a mark. Same goes for private sales.

That puts all of the onus on the government, as it should.

That's actually an interesting idea - in fact it may be better than my idea.  It would have value in other areas besides guns - such as alcohol sales and employment.

I would only add to your proposal a verification system, open to all, run over the net.  It's just too easy to forge IDs.   Pull up a website, punch in the number, check that it matches and the print out the page and the verification number.  File it away and you are done.  If ATF knocks on your door about a gun you sold, you show them the form.  Such as system could work - and it, like my proposal, avoids giving the government the info they need to set up a registration system.

The only problem I see is that some will argue that a "no guns" mark on your D/L would stigmatize people...... but I still think it's a good idea.

vincewarde

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2014, 11:05:32 AM »
I would rather that the government compile a database of firearms prohibited persons and FFLs download that database and down load updated at the start of each day. 

Then an offline application can access that database without anyone outside the FFL's shop knowing the request was made. 

No possibility that the request to purchase could be gathered and kept for any use...except locally where we already have to leave a paper trail.

Another good idea with good protections!

Quote
Leave private sales alone.  No individual can verify that an ID is not a fake...and a seller who can legally buy firearms and intends to sell them illegally won't be checking IDs anyway.

Now if you could figure out a way to open the system to private sellers, we could slam he door shut on the antis best issue.

Hazcat

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2014, 11:17:56 AM »
Universal BG will never be in our favor.

The antis want ALL transfers to be with a BG at an FFL, period.  If you put any 'loopholes' in it for family then they will still say it is not universal and will continue to whine and complain that we are not 'sincere' about 'gun safety'.

If it passed with a 'family' exception how do you define 'family'?  Mom, Dad, children, brother, sister?  How about 'I was raised by my Aunt, Grandmother, cousin', etc?  Does it include foster parents? These are questions I can come up with off the top of my mind, I am sure others could easily come up with even more.

NO MORE COMPROMISE!   (BTW 'compromise' is another word for capitulation when dealing with the left)

Let's send a bill up that says every state MUST recognize a form of constitutional carry, either open or concealed.  If they choose open then concealed may be a permitted process (same if they choose concealed as the primary).

Lets push for enough votes to pass it and then see if the antis want to 'compromise'.

Deal (if you must) from a position of strength not by giving away things before the process is even started.

You and Alan (bless his good work) want to start from an 'OBO' and HOPE you can get something near your asking price.  That is a losing mindset.
All tipoes and misspelings are copi-righted.  Pleeze do not reuse without ritten persimmons  :D

Solus

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2014, 11:19:38 AM »
The easiest way to open it to private sellers is that they visit an FFL shop and run the search off line. 

PITA for sure....but if a private seller wanted to be absolutely CYA sure the sale was legal that would work.  But optional not mandatory.

Would even work at gun shows...so that "loop hole" would be nullified.

Now, if FFLs provided the service for $2, it would be fine...again for those who CHOOSE to use that OPTION.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

Solus

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Re: James Brady
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2014, 11:29:05 AM »
HMM...was thinking about how a private seller might have access to the database.

I am sure they will not want to DL, store and update the database so if a local firearms group could provide browse access to that database, it might work...but still a PITA to have a computer handy at the time of sale..and it would still have to be an OPTIONAL procedure.

Any worries about the DB being modified in uncontrolled hands is null...if they intended to violate the law, they wouldn't take the time to dl the thing.

Any one with the DB and willing to use is have proven they do not intend to make an illegal sale.

So again, that procedure would not stop criminals even if it were mandatory.

It would have the benefit of allowing the private seller to do the most possible to verify the legality of the buyer...if they felt it necessary.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

 

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