Talk about chumming!!!

[Rastus]

Mostly those arrogant arses are in the cities and I'm thinking without electricity and water for 3 or 4 days they all get a lot less belligerent and after a couple of weeks they don't even know who they are.  The Germans did a good job of controlling populations this way during WWII....and then the 1,100/day calorie diets did the rest to keep them pacified.

And Tom I ignored the POSPOTUS talks because that's what I do.  I get ill whenever I seem him....and think about all of the truly stupid people who voted for him. 

[PegLeg45]

This is kind of nit picking technicality, but hey, that's life.
Yes the old guys can sit in one place and shoot the crap out of what comes in range, but if you're in Boston, and the fighting is in NY that isn't much use.
 Remember, the really effective forces in history, Stonewall Jackson's "foot Calvary", the Roman Legions, Bedford Forrest' s confederates,even the British Corps of Guides in India, all owed their reputations to their ability to cover ground faster than the enemy could react.
Troops that arrived in Gettysburg on 4/7/1863 didn't get famous.

Absolutely understood....but, if a new civil war erupts, I expect it will be a whole different beast than the original war between the states.
In this one, the fighting won't be entire state region against region, it will most likely be un-militaristic, unorganized fighting within population groups (with the large metro areas seeing the worst of it).

[Solus]

Absolutely understood....but, if a new civil war erupts, I expect it will be a whole different beast than the original war between the states.
In this one, the fighting won't be entire state region against region, it will most likely be un-militaristic, unorganized fighting within population groups (with the large metro areas seeing the worst of it).

Another factor is that with internal chaos in this country, the path is open for a large scale foreign military invasion.  It would be difficult to mount a coordinated defense against it with the military perhaps split between the internal factions. 

I have little doubt that the current administration would do all in it's power to facilitate that invasion.

[tombogan03884]

No one else has the lift capacity to make invasion a viable option.

[Ulmus]

I don't see an invasion, but I see an opportunity taken by our advisories.  Russia takes on Ukraine and the Balkan States, China takes over the South Chinese Sea and Taiwan, and something in the middle east.

It would be all too easy with us fighting amongst ourselves.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

So what ?
Why do we even give a crap as long as they still sell us what we want and buy our exports at reasonable prices ?
Isn't it about time we worried about America instead of playing Jewish Uncle to the whole world ?
Who really gives a crap about a current phase of the centuries old conflict in the Balkans, or Ukraine, or Perpetual expansion and contractions of China ?

[Ulmus]

Tom, aren't you part of the generation that taught us that our word is our bond?

We gave our word we'd defend Ukraine if they gave up their nukes.

We gave our word we'd protect Taiwan from China.

We gave our word we'd support Israel.

Does our word mean anything or not?

[tombogan03884]

No, actually I'm from the generation that watched congress promise to help South Vietnam if the North violated the cease fire then turned around and said "Damn, sucks to be you" when the NVA invaded 2 years later.
Obviously common sense and practical realities, to say nothing of historical lessons, have no place in your thinking here.
Only an idiot would expect us to be able to assist a land locked country  half way around the world ,remember Poland in 1939 ? They fought with out aid for the very simple reason that there was no way for anybody to get there. Same with the Hungarian and Czech revolutions in the 60's.
I won't even address the fact that "Ukraine's" nukes were actually Russian property so they had no right to them any way.
As for Taiwan and Israel since they both have nukes , and are better of with out our temperamental meddling.And before you go on about being "Part of a generation that..." you might want to remember, regardless of your own views, you are part of a generation that argues over which bathroom you can use and elected a treasonous Muslim POS, twice.
And here's a couple quotes for you,
"Countries don't have "friends, they have interests" (in other words if it is to the countries benefit to throw their closest ally under the bus then the benefit of the country takes precedent over sentiment)
"Who cares if they like us,so long as they fear us"
Also have a couple of my personal favorites about BLM,
One death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"
"No man, No problem"

[Ulmus]

No, actually I'm from the generation that watched congress promise to help South Vietnam if the North violated the cease fire then turned around and said "Damn, sucks to be you" when the NVA invaded 2 years later.

Ah, I keep forgetting that you're from the 60's.  You're strong conservative posts always remind me of a friend who grew up in the 50's, so I keep accidentally putting in that era.  My apologies.

Obviously common sense and practical realities, to say nothing of historical lessons, have no place in your thinking here.

Yes.  I am a bit of a romantic.  I believe in the practical realities of having an economic and military station set on the other side of the planet to expedite actions to prevent having to fight them on our soil.

Only an idiot would expect us to be able to assist a land locked country  half way around the world ,remember Poland in 1939 ? They fought with out aid for the very simple reason that there was no way for anybody to get there. Same with the Hungarian and Czech revolutions in the 60's.

What I was taught about Poland is that we were too war weary and chose isolation over interfering.  We ended up in the fight anyway.  Do we want to go through that again?

I won't even address the fact that "Ukraine's" nukes were actually Russian property so they had no right to them any way.

If they were Russia's, why did they also sign the non-aggression pact and have those nuke disposed of instead of taking them back to the motherland?  Obviously Russia didn't mind losing them.

As for Taiwan and Israel since they both have nukes , and are better of without our temperamental meddling.

Maybe, but you know the "Powers that be" on both sides will never allow that.

And before you go on about being "Part of a generation that..." you might want to remember, regardless of your own views, you are part of a generation that argues over which bathroom you can use and elected a treasonous Muslim POS, twice..

Yes. WE are.  Call it that curse of living in interesting times.  We could have fun with it though.  We could both wear micro skirts and skip hand-in-hand to the women's bathroom while singing George Michael's "Freedom". That would cause a stir.

And here's a couple quotes for you,
"Countries don't have "friends, they have interests" (in other words if it is to the countries benefit to throw their closest ally under the bus then the benefit of the country takes precedent over sentiment)

If that's true, then we should be aiding Venezuela and establishing a military base there. With the collapse there the country is ripe to have China sweep in and "aid" it.  It would definitely be in their interest to have a large military base and Navy right in the Gulf of Mexico. They could quickly counter our moves in the Sea of China.  It's in our best interests to "own" that area instead of an adversary.

"Who cares if they like us, so long as they fear us"

Fear only works so long and then we get things like Baltimore.  Then everybody loses.  (Baltimore will be Detroit for the next two generations.)

Also have a couple of my personal favorites about BLM,
One death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"
"No man, No problem"

Which is what the chummers want.  Just like the guy who's article I posted at the beginning.  I say we don't give them what they want.  Deal with those that are a threat to the countries interests, and make sure those that aren't are treated the same as you and me.

[tombogan03884]

Re-reading my post it sounds a little more assholish than I intended, but by now you probably understand that is my writing style.

Cut and quote is a PITA on this tablet, so I'll just go with numbered paragraphs.
1) Yes, every one I was around outside of school was older than me, often WWII veterans, plus my interest (some say addiction) to history give me an older, more pragmatic less emotion based outlook.
2) That's one I didn't intend to sound so shitty, but I firmly believe that one of histories greatest lessons is that decisions have to be made ruthlessly based on facts rather than wishful thinking, like medical triage. Otherwise you wind up with situations like Haiti, where the only industry for 200 years has been absorbing US charity. The truly kindest course would be to cut them loose, they either starve and die off, or they get their act together and become an actual viable country.
3) When I mentioned Poland I was thinking more of England and France who had treaties with them but when the crunch came couldn't back up their promises. In 1939 America's biggest consideration was that it wasn't our fight, we had no treaty obligations to any of them and were doing business with all. In cold fact, we really had nothing at stake in either European war beyond friendship with England.
4) The Russian's were obligated under he arms limitation treaties to destroy X number of nukes. They were happier about destroying ones they no longer had bases for rather than ones protecting the "Rodina".
5) The only thing we can do for either is keep selling them ammo.They both have their own arms industries , just as advanced as ours. The iplomatic actions are like TSA, meaningless posturing.
6) Umm, no thanks. Just for starters my knees are so white they glow in the dark.  Scary mental image !  LOL
7) Actually, that's why we RALLY fought the Spanish war, to acquiring coaling station in accordance with Mahan's theories of sea power. We had 3 good ones, Porto Rico, Gitmo, and the Canal zone. nuke powered carriers, subs and airlift have reduced that need somewhat. (influence of Sea Power is actually pretty readable and interesting, and free on Project Gutenberg)
Fear has worked fine, it kept Romans eating free Egyptian bread for centuries. In our time it has kept any one from doing anything about BLM because they are afraid of being called "racist". It has kept the anti gun lobby alive because every one on our side seems to fear being called "unreasonable".
9) Not wanting to piss off people who already hate you and want you gone, preferably dead, is what lead Germany's Jews to quietly board the cattle cars. Solzhenitsyn had a quote to the effect that if Soviet people had showed any spine, and killed a few Chekists the purges would not have been possible.