Author Topic: intermediate caliber  (Read 15476 times)

Big Frank

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2017, 03:52:15 PM »
Wikipedia has an article on intermediate cartridges. It starts out, "An intermediate cartridge is a rifle/carbine cartridge that is less powerful than typical full-power battle rifle cartridges, such as the .303 British, 7.62×54mmR, 7.92×57mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield or 7.62×51mm NATO, but still has significantly longer effective range than pistol cartridges." Nowhere does it say they have to be based on shortened high power rifle rounds. I haven't seen anywhere in  print or on the web that has ever said intermediate cartridges have to be based on shortened full power rounds either. The .30 Carbine was based on a small game hunting cartridge, not a main battle rifle cartridge, and it's an intermediate cartridge. The 5.56x45mm was developed as an intermediate cartridge with more power and longer range than the .30 Carbine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge
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PegLeg45

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2017, 05:05:20 PM »
It all depends on each person's interpretation. Intermediate being a point between two other points, based on a defined criteria.

You can have a wide range of power factors in one single caliber, example: .45 caliber, that spans from .45 ACP to .458 Win Mag. Somewhere there is an intermediate cartridge. 

Then you can consider power factor only (energy) regardless of caliber, from .17 HMR caliber to .50 BMG....handgun to rifle, somewhere there is an intermediate cartridge.

The best case is a happy medium of all the above.
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billt

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2017, 06:22:06 PM »
The 5.56x45mm was developed as an intermediate cartridge with more power and longer range than the .30 Carbine.

"Intermediate" to what? You can't compare it to .30 caliber cartridges. It was developed as, and in fact is, one of the highest velocity centerfire .22's on the market, and always has been. It was way ahead of the standardization of the .22-250 Remington. Which didn't come until late 1965. And about the only centerfire .22's above it and before it were the .225 Winchester and the .220 Swift.

However there are a ton of lesser velocity centerfire .22's that would qualify as "intermediate", besides the .223. The .22 Jet, .256 Winchester Magnum, .22 Hornet, just to name a few. But as far as high performance .22 centerfire's are rated among all that are out there, the .223 is hardly considered to be, "intermediate".

Big Frank

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2017, 09:53:48 PM »
"Intermediate" to what? You can't compare it to .30 caliber cartridges. It was developed as, and in fact is, one of the highest velocity centerfire .22's on the market, and always has been. It was way ahead of the standardization of the .22-250 Remington. Which didn't come until late 1965. And about the only centerfire .22's above it and before it were the .225 Winchester and the .220 Swift.

However there are a ton of lesser velocity centerfire .22's that would qualify as "intermediate", besides the .223. The .22 Jet, .256 Winchester Magnum, .22 Hornet, just to name a few. But as far as high performance .22 centerfire's are rated among all that are out there, the .223 is hardly considered to be, "intermediate".

At the end of WWII various nations were looking for something for their military more effective at longer range than pistol caliber submachine guns. But they also wanted something lighter with less recoil than the high power rifle cartridges they had. They wanted something intermediate in power between pistols and main battle rifles. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

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billt

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2017, 05:38:34 AM »
At the end of WWII various nations were looking for something for their military more effective at longer range than pistol caliber submachine guns. But they also wanted something lighter with less recoil than the high power rifle cartridges they had. They wanted something intermediate in power between pistols and main battle rifles. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

It isn't hard to understand. But what does ANY of that have to do with you declaring the .223 / 5.56 MM an "intermediate cartridge".... It is not. As I said, it is, and always has been one of the highest velocity .22 centerfire's ever made. You can't heap calibers together, then turn around and pick one as "intermediate".

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Re: intermediate caliber
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tombogan03884

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2017, 05:52:28 AM »
At the end of WWII various nations were looking for something for their military more effective at longer range than pistol caliber submachine guns. But they also wanted something lighter with less recoil than the high power rifle cartridges they had. They wanted something intermediate in power between pistols and main battle rifles. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.


I can't understand what's so hard for you to understand is that from post one the whole point of this thread is to challenge the definition that you keep parroting.
I'm saying that intermediate is FULL caliber, less power, and you just can't get that through you're dogmatic head.

Big Frank

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2017, 11:55:29 AM »


I can't understand what's so hard for you to understand is that from post one the whole point of this thread is to challenge the definition that you keep parroting.
I'm saying that intermediate is FULL caliber, less power, and you just can't get that through you're dogmatic head.

You can challenge the definition that the whole world uses all you want but you're wrong. Ask the people who defined it if any are still alive. I get what you're saying but I and most of the world disagree with you.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

Big Frank

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2017, 11:58:37 AM »
It isn't hard to understand. But what does ANY of that have to do with you declaring the .223 / 5.56 MM an "intermediate cartridge".... It is not. As I said, it is, and always has been one of the highest velocity .22 centerfire's ever made. You can't heap calibers together, then turn around and pick one as "intermediate".

What it has to do with it is, and what it's always had to do with it, that the .223/5.56x45mm is intermediate in power between a .45 ACP and a .308/7.62x51mm. Deny it if you want to but the facts speak for themselves.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

billt

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2017, 05:23:03 PM »
I'm saying that intermediate is FULL caliber, less power, and you just can't get that through you're dogmatic head.

All his whining is based on the fact he doesn't get the FULL CALIBER part of the definition.

Big Frank

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2017, 10:54:24 PM »
All his whining is based on the fact he doesn't get the FULL CALIBER part of the definition.

You two have your definition but I'll stick with the definition that the rest of the world has been using ever since the concept was invented. Full caliber isn't a part of it and never was. You two are the ones who don't get it.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

 

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