Author Topic: intermediate caliber  (Read 15622 times)

tombogan03884

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intermediate caliber
« on: July 10, 2017, 06:42:07 AM »
As I under stand it an "intermediate cartridge" is one that is less powerful than a full size rifle cartridge but more powerful than a pistol cartridge, the original's that defined the term were the 8x57 reduced to 8x33 and the 7.62 x54 cut down to 7.62 x39.
Even 7.62x51is a reduction of our own 7.62x57 (30-06) .
So how does a varmint round, a high power .22 qualify as an "intermediate" caliber ?
And why are we trying to use it to knock down people .45 acp was invented to stop
I don't want to hear crap about increased velocity because using FMJ that's all bullshit .
It's another issue we settled 100+ years ago when we canned the 6mm Lee in favor of 30/40Krag.
If a bullet punches right through it's not dumping that velocity into the target so it is irrelevant.
The 6.5 and 6.8 AR rounds are "intermediate calibers" same with 300 Blackout, which , because of the minimal cost of conversion I think is the best bet for the next M-16/M-4 version.

PegLeg45

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 02:28:00 PM »
Intermediate cartridges, IMHO, best fit in the home defense arena. I don't need one in a rifle for hunting (sport, maybe) and I don't need it for CCW (obviously).
So.......
I think an AR pistol or SBR in 300BLK loaded with 168 or 200 grain HP at subsonic velocities (and using a suppressor) would be an optimal home defense weapon.


"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

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Rastus

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 02:51:18 PM »
KRISS Vector in 45 ACP????
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tombogan03884

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 03:39:18 PM »
I'm talking military rifle.The Germans wanted to replace their rifles with something that gave the soldier more fire power while the Soviets wanted to give their submachine gunners greater range.
Both arrived at the same result, the STG and AK are basically the same while both cartridges are the standard rifle cartridge with the casing cut down by ABOUT 50% (I know it's not exact, but I don't feel like doing the math) We on the other hand reduced our service cartridge by a mere 6mm, then went to a varmint caliber.

les snyder

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 10:33:11 PM »
FWIW .... 5.56 rounds at over 2700fps will yaw when entering human tissue, then break apart at the crimping canular, causing organ tissue stretched by the hydro static shock wave to be shredded... less than about 2700fps and the projectile completes a 180 degree yaw and leaves the body backwards....


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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #5 on: Today at 08:19:32 PM »

tombogan03884

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 06:09:43 AM »
FWIW .... 5.56 rounds at over 2700fps will yaw when entering human tissue, then break apart at the crimping canular, causing organ tissue stretched by the hydro static shock wave to be shredded... less than about 2700fps and the projectile completes a 180 degree yaw and leaves the body backwards....



What does it do in light brush or any kind of breeze ?
A bullet breaking up isn't a good thing, you want the same performance from a military bullet that you would want in hunting for the same reasons.

Solus

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 07:20:00 AM »
The yaw isn't an unintended occurrence, the round was designed to yaw for damage.  From what I recall, the round was very slightly unstable in flight with the tip moving in a very tight circle and that would cause the yaw as it entered tissue.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/5/21/testing-the-army-s-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge/

Army researchers found that lethality was dictated by the 5.56 mm bullet’s yaw; that is, after impact a hardened ball projectile must wobble or turn against its axis-yaw-or fragment, to inflict significant tissue damage. “At a low angle of yaw,” an Army study determined, “the bullet reacts more slowly, causing the inconsistent effects observed in the field … . [T]he location and amount of yaw depend upon the speed of the bullet at impact, angle of impact, and density of tissue.”

A related factor was the physiology of Afghan Taliban and Iraqi insurgents. Usually malnourished, their torsos are only about 7.5-inches thick, while the older M855 projectile often penetrated, “up to 7 inches before beginning to yaw, and will already have exited the body before yaw or fragmentation occur.” According to published standards, the new cartridge is designed to yaw no more than 3 inches beyond the impact point, producing a temporary cavity diameter of 4 to 6 inches and minimum penetration depth of 12 inches, and to do that consistently.
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les snyder

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 08:14:31 AM »
Tom... I've seen videos of a 50BMG deflected by a 1/2 stick... using the stadia lines of my ACOG to figure horizontal drift, I hit 10" plates at Ft Benning with a 55grain M193 with a 15" hold off in 20 knot winds, and it took 3 shots

you better have something that can shoot through the Chicom knock off ceramic armor that is being produced, at social distances... and you better shoot more than one shot pretty darn close together

tombogan03884

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 12:23:59 PM »
How come for the first 75 years of smokeless powder did all military's settle on a round rifle caliber between 6.5 and 7.92 ?

PegLeg45

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Re: intermediate caliber
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 12:31:55 PM »
I'm talking military rifle.The Germans wanted to replace their rifles with something that gave the soldier more fire power while the Soviets wanted to give their submachine gunners greater range.
Both arrived at the same result, the STG and AK are basically the same while both cartridges are the standard rifle cartridge with the casing cut down by ABOUT 50% (I know it's not exact, but I don't feel like doing the math) We on the other hand reduced our service cartridge by a mere 6mm, then went to a varmint caliber.

I still agree on the 300BLK...whether SBR or carbine.

As you mentioned, it is the easiest to convert with minimal parts (barrel, gas block and gas tube ?), and of the other calibers mentioned it has the widest range of bullet weights because it uses any bullet the .308 can use....and works well as a subsonic load, and when loaded fast it at least compares to the AK at "intermediate" ranges.

JMHO, FWIW
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

 

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