SAAMI Is A Crock !

[billt]

As a longtime shooter and reloader, I've been getting more suspicious over SAAMI's pressure "standards" for a long time now. Along with all of this "+P" and "+P+" ratings you see everywhere. The fact is ammunition is getting weaker across the board, and has been for years.  I have long suspected that SAAMI pressure "standards" have been lowered..... A LOT. So I decided to prove it to myself, and did some research.

The "warning" on this box of current production Gold Dots states, they are.... "22% Higher Than SAAMI Standards"..... OK, Which standards? Established when? This is an ever changing saga.

I dragged out some of my old Speer manuals, and found out SAAMI and the industry introduced "+P" ammo ratings as of 1975. At that time .38 Special standard pressure was 18,900 CUP. "+P" was 22,400 CUP. As of 1998 it was reduced to 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI. As of today, (some 19 years later), it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI. This is continually evolving in a lower direction.

So if you do the math, "+P" for .38 Special was 22,400 in 1975 when SAAMI first introduced the standard. Today "+P" is now 18,500. That is a whopping 3,900 PSI, or over 17% LOWER. Yeah, I get it that CUP doesn't correlate exactly into PSI. But you see where all of this is going. Down... WAY DOWN. I'm betting if you do a similar cross comparison with 9 MM, you'll most likely come up with similar percentage differences.

This isn't unique to just .38 Special. So..... "22% over SAAMI Spec.", today really isn't. Especially if you subtract the 17% they've lowered their "standard" since they created it back in 1975. And the real kicker is, the current SAAMI "+P" rating for .38 Special, is actually 400 PSI LOWER, than the .38 Special standard rating was in 1975. That's insane. What's changed to cause this besides an off the rails legal system?

What the hell good is an industry "standard", if they're going to keep changing it? This is ridiculous. It's gotten to the point that "+P" along with all of this "+P+" nonsense is becoming somewhat of a joke. These "standards" hardly remain "standard" for very long. And when they change, they go lower... NEVER higher. Last I checked, my guns haven't weakened with age. Only SAAMI's "standards". And it seems as the legal community strengthens, SAAMI further weakens. This all has nothing to do with chamber pressure. Instead it's all being regulated by legal pressure. And again, the last time I checked, lawyers didn't know jack shit about maximum chamber pressures in firearms. Just how to sue the manufacturers who make them.

So the bottom line is when you see these big red "warning" labels plastered all over most of this high performance ammunition that's for sale out there, take all of it with a grain of salt. Because most all of it is weaker than the non "+P" stuff they were selling just 30 years ago. OK, rant off.

 

[Solus]

Are CUP and PSI numbers equivalent?

[billt]

Are CUP and PSI numbers equivalent?

Not exactly, but they're close. If you're more comfortable with PSI, (and most people are), They've used it since 1998. And you can see SAAMI "standards" still show how it's been dropping off. They gotten away from Copper Crusher readings, (C.U.P.), since they have come out with electronic tranducers, because they're much more accurate.

[tombogan03884]

Apply that same thinking to health care, whether Dem or Republican .
How many Md's in congress ?

[Big Frank]

I think since CUP and PSI aren't the same and the actual readings they're getting now are more accurate they've changed some of the standards to reflect the up to date information.

[Sponsor]

[billt]

CUP and or PSI aside. My gripe is... What is the purpose of changing an established standard? If you do the research, and the research is correct, why change the established standard you have created, that everyone has gone by for years?

The National Bureau Of Standards wouldn't come out and take 4 ounces out of a gallon. There is no reason to. It would just screw everything up. Just like SAAMI has with all of this pressure manipulation. And they haven't done it once, but several times over the last 42 years since they created the original standard.

[billt]

I think since CUP and PSI aren't the same and the actual readings they're getting now are more accurate they've changed some of the standards to reflect the up to date information.

They are no doubt more accurate since they've gone to electronic transducers. But there is no doubt they are lower.

[billt]

As a better example. I still have some old late 60's Remington .44 Magnum, 240 Gr. Lead Gas Check ammo in the dark green and white box, with the red lettering. That stuff was loaded so hot it made what Cor-Bon loads today look like it was loaded by a Buddhist Monk. There were no warnings on it anywhere. Weatherby Magnum factory ammo even more so. .340 Weatherby Magnum factory ammo from the early 70's, was loaded hotter than .338-378 Weatherby ammo is today. Factory .338-378 Weatherby ammo today is a $170.00 a box total joke. The only way you can achieve what that cartridge is capable of today, is by handloading it with super slow burning military surplus powders.

If anyone needs further proof of how weak ammunition has gotten over the years, compare a handloading manual published in the 60's, to one published today. Compare bullet and charge weights to velocities, and everything published today is so diluted it's pathetic. This isn't because the guns have gotten weaker. But rather because the legal system in this country has gone completely off the rails. We didn't live in a sue crazy society then, like we do now. And no one was blowing up their guns either. If anything, today's guns are stronger than ever before. Modern metallurgy, along with steel manufacturing is producing far higher tensile strength materials, than were being produced back 50 years ago. There is no physical reason for this ammunition to have become weaker.

We just weren't plagued with an over abundance of sue crazy, ambulance chasing lawyers to deal with. And juries who sympathize with them. This is why we have warnings plastered over every box of ammo being produced. Again, it's not because of chamber pressure.... But rather legal pressure.

[Big Frank]

With accurate measurements they decided the pressure was too high in some calibers. It may have just been that they thought the pressure was excessive and had nothing to do with lawyers, etc. We're not likely to ever find out for sure.

[tombogan03884]

The National Bureau Of Standards wouldn't come out and take 4 ounces out of a gallon.

Who says they won't ?
Do I have to point out that the original standard, the English gallon contains 5 American quarts ?