NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!

[ellis4538]

Marshall, thanks for the information.  I am very surprised you have had the patience to let this kind of thing go on so long.  Even though I agree, in principle, with the criticism given certain companies it is wrong to rant like we did.  It is frustrating as a consumer to spend money or anticipate doing so only to have to wait, and wait, and wait!!!  It is also frustrating to have contacted a company or companies and not receive any kind of response whatsoever.  My frustration is very strong with several companies and if I let this color my buying habits I wouldn't have much that I could look at let alone buy!  Patience has never been one of my strong points.

Thanks for all you hve done and will do to keep DRTV the best,

Richard

[Hazcat]

I supposed my hand was in there as well, sort of egging it on with my jokes and half witted quips.

Count me in as saying OOPS!, too.

[MikeBjerum]

Thanks for all you all do to provide this for us.  Thanks for being willing to be the "firemen" to protect this for the future. And, Thanks Jay (and Haz) for stepping up with an apology.  I've been guilty of getting either carried away or being just plain off base, and admitting I was wrong is tough.  I found that as I got more and more comfortable with all of you I am able to spout off without thinking things through, and I forget that not everyone understands my warped mind.

I will admit that at least one thread made me uncomfortable, but the neat, or bad, thing about a forum is we can just ignore a thread or poster at will.  However, we forget that others not only read these but take them very serious.  Sometimes they take it even more serious than us.

With these revelations I also apologize to our three providers, the sponsors of the shows, forums and sites we enjoy, and to anyone else I may have offended or hurt with my less than thoughtful posts.

It is obvious that over the recent weeks we have caused you all some stressful days and sleepless nights.

Sorry and Thanks again, from one of the kids!

[Bidah]

Keeping a forum on original intent is a tough job, been there, done that.  I have failed and succeeded in working to do so.  All the efforts here have been outstanding, and this place has grown considerably since it was started.  I don't post a lot, but from deep down I do appreciate all the efforts that have gone into DRTV since the beginning.

Can we get one of those happy, funky, and ever so neat M'ette posts?   

-Bidah

[ericire12]

I must say that this is a good move. I would hate for DRTV to become like all those other forums that I would never want to be apart of. So, for having the foresight to realize where the ranting was going, I say good job.

I would also like to apologize for any fanning of the flames that I might have done on any post that I have made here.

Sometimes people put the blinders on and dont really realize the road they are going down until it is too late, and I am glad that this forum did not go to the point of no return.




*Just a warning..... I dont really think that I can control myself when talking about those loony Democrats and the direction that they want to take our great nation, so you may want to ban me completely from commenting in the politics section of the forum.

[Sponsor]

[1776 Rebel]

Sorry to post for a second time on this issue, but I thought I should express myself further. I had not gone over the fold and read the opening post of MB the first time. Now that I did, I have been noodling on it a bit more. MB makes specific reference to "letter writing" as being verboten as of now. As I recall I was the one that had posted on that. So I take that personally.

I made a suggestion that customers should not be bashful about communicating with the companies that take their money. That goes for every company you buy from. The deli guy selling sandwiches, the car maker or the gun manufacturer. I spelled out how and what to communicate. I made sure to add that these be "professional and polite". Vulgar or crude remarks in a business context are never appropriate. Obviously that struck too close to the heart. But there is a social contract between these two players, seller and buyer. Violation of that contract should not be tolerated. In my personal experience I have run very large enterprises. I have told my salesman in no uncertain terms that the customer is king. No ifs, ands, or buts. They could afford the BMWs only because of that guy on the other side of the table.

One of the problems with the Internet in general is the ability to create illusion. The teenager that pretends to be older. The man who lurks as a woman. The provocateur that stirs the pot. The advertisement that seems to be objective. I had thought that this forum, that DR in general was objective. Here is where in my eyes it gets a little dicey. You see, some of the discussion literally involves life and death. What type of gun for defense? What type of ammo may save your life? Who can provide training of a quality to be respected? This is not trivial. The life of  my family and myself, potential blood on the floor, are at stake. I read MB for this kind of information.

The new rules I believe exposes something that brings all this in question. If companies in fact run DR (as I see this change clearly indicating) what am I actually reading and viewing here? All of this now is suspect. Geeze I am so disappointed.

I still cling to the thought that Marshal and wife and yes MB are good folk. I humbly suggest that the companies that may have forced your hand are oh so wrong. So shortsighted. Rather than come out and simply post a reply inviting (yes inviting) communication they have attempted to stifle it. Rather than improving dialog with their customers they have devalued it. Rather than building respect for their executives and management they have undermined it. I will give them my gratis advice from several decades of selling. Instead of not engaging in discussion, the respect factor would have simply gone off the chart if the execs had posted a direct reply on this forum. Like ole Bill Clinton, you don’t get in trouble for the act. You get in trouble for hiding from it and lying.

Since I joined this forum over a year and a half ago I have enjoyed the thousands of posts and discussions I've read and to a small part that I participated in. As others have said, I have found the folks here are truly different from numerous other forums. But I wouldn’t be true to myself and my own standards if I didn’t do something appropriate to this situation. I honestly can’t see myself participating any longer in something which seems to be something different from what I had thought it was. As I said I truly respect and value the folks that the members are. So I wish you all good bye. Or as BHO would say “au revoir”.

Dammit I am totally bummed out.

[ismram]

I was out of town for a few weeks and BAM! What the heck did I miss?

[DesertMarine]

Right on Rebel.  The comments that I have seen, criticize but are given in honest opinions.  If the sponsors would take that information and use us a unpaid advisors they would have a wealth of information on how to improve their products.  As for Micheal Bane and Marshal, I have no problem with their positions.  As it has been pointed out, if the sponsors would have offered information to their customers as to what was happening and what they were doing to correct problems, the majority of contributors to these forums would have understood and learned.  Prime example is the SR9 discussions.  There were plenty of instances where information was given but never any feedback from Ruger as to what they were doing to correct the situation.  If need be, the comments could be tailored differently but like Rebel said, when it comes down to a possible life and death situation with a questionable firearms, are we supposed to be nice and not bruise egos, don't think so.  It is up to us to tell the truth and the manufacturer if they care and the truth hurts, correct the problem. 

This is one of two sites that I participate in by choice.  First, I like firearms and shooting.  I also like the caliber of people that contribute, we all think differently and have different opinions as to how things should be or be corrected and are willing to share without insulting each other.   If my remarks offend sponsors, I'll join Rebel.

[Teresa Heilevang]

Can we get one of those happy, funky, and ever so neat M'ette posts?  
-Bidah

Marshalette's funky posts?? Damn, I didn't know I was so highly thought of.. .

*Just a warning..... I dont really think that I can control myself when talking about those loony Democrats and the direction that they want to take our great nation, so you may want to ban me completely from commenting in the politics section of the forum.

Well guess what ericire12.. this "loony and funky" blond can't help myself either.
This politics junkie is going down the crapper if that is the case. 

Like Marshal and I stated in our joint post ( and yeeessss I did have a hand in that.)  you all honestly didn't think he writes that good did you??    Phhhffftt... come on.. The roosters may rule the roost in this place.. but Da Blond rules the roosters.   


Seriously guys... neither Marshal or Michael or myself want or expect you all to watch every word you say about any company's products. After all.. they make them and they should stand up and be accountable for them too. I don't care what company it is. I could have added my 2 cents in that thread too. 
But there is constructive criticism and then there is  down right throwing mud and enticing a riot type of postings too.. LOL
And believe me.. all 3 of the M's on this side of the gate have been guilty of that too at one time or another, so no one is exempt on having to check themselves on this matter.
 Does that excuse us or make it justified? No.
 BUT...................................
I  have been in retail all of my life. I was...with my ex husband.....a partner and  ..... the owner.. operator bookkeeper and janitor of a True Value Hardware store) so I have been taught all of my life,and I am a firm believer that the customer is ALWAYS right.. ( even if sometimes they are not ). In these cases I think you had every right to be upset and I agreed totally with whoever said..I ( can't remember who it was now..) that you all should write letters directly to the companies in a nice and constructive way. Communication in any form is better than none. Unfortunately 9 times out of 10 you hear nothing back.. which of course leads to the frustrations and anger that you felt.. that all of us feel when that happens.

I understand how "lack of communication" in any area..whether it be from a company you have bought a product from.. or from people you work with, or to and from your family who sits across the dinner table with you at night, ... Lack of discussing, talking and sharing information that you have received is the biggest breakdown of any relationship on any level.  So for that , I will give you my sincere apologies for not calling these companies more and trying to work more "for you" in this area.. Getting some answers for you. Hell .. ANY fricken' communication of any kind is better than nothing.  I'm sorry. I will try to monitor more directly on some of the boards that I don't frequent a lot, so that this type of thing could maybe be resolved  ( at least with communication)  before it hits the "I'm so frustrated and pissed off """ I want to start shooting""" mentality takes hold.

ellis4538 .. you said it as good as anyone. It IS frustrating as a consumer to spend money or anticipate doing so only to have to wait, and wait, and wait!!!  It is also frustrating to have contacted a company or companies and not receive any kind of response whatsoever.
( And trust me .. Marshal and I have been there many many times.  ) That is why he and I are usually so darn quick to try to make contact, get things out in the open, find solutions and  try to resolve things by communications. ( God didn't give us a mouth to just use for eating you know..........  Haz...SHUT UP!!  )
I feel that we dropped the ball on this one. Once again.. my apologies for not communicating with you more on this.
 We knew that Ruger was working very diligently on trying to remedy the problem. Because of your input.. no matter the way it was presented, they have taken the comments and criticism seriously.  Unfortunately in most corporate systems, you have to go through a chain of command, to be able to get a statement directed out to the public. Even though they want to ride the same day they saddle the horse..they can't.  Our fault for NOT letting you know that they had heard..and that they were working on it. I'm sorry.

So we appreciate all of your input. None of you need to apologize for voicing your opinions. You have legitimate gripes. ..  even if some of them got over the top.. they would never have gotten to that point if "communication" had been present in the first place.. I also want you to know that Marshal and I are working on finding a better, more direct and effective way of communication with companies instead of letting the forum become a town hall meeting without the major there. Kinda like signing to the choir ..and I have been there more times that not.

Hang in there with us.. I  still say the Down Range members are a huge step above all the other members in other forums out there.  Please don't think that anything that we or MB has posted is a direct hit on anyone personally. it isn't.

Now if I could just get in Obama's face and make him answer to me................................................

[Teresa Heilevang]

While I was working on my last response ( between phone calls and trying to answer direct e-mails..) I see where 1776 Rebel and DessertMarine have posted. Instead of going back into my lengthy post, I will answer and comment on them now. 

I agree 100% with both of you. I can't find fault at all with what you said..and I would feel and say ( like I did in my post) basically the same thing. Lack of communication is something that I absolutely cannot tolerate. On any level. So.. yeah.. you are more than justified in your response. 

Rebel..  when you said "The new rules I believe exposes something that brings all this in question. If companies in fact run DR (as I see this change clearly indicating) what am I actually reading and viewing here? All of this now is suspect. "


Please.. do not 'suspect' anything.
The companies in question do not "run us".
 No one "runs us" except....."us".
 
 I can see where by the way MB worded his post, it would seem that way.
( Another validation that the way we talk on the internet..is not necessarily the way it would come out if that person was talking directly. Michael is a pretty much blunt ..to the point.. writer.. Reading his daily blog is proof of that.  and that is why his blog and podcasts are so popular. )
 But I can assure you that his posts and our posts that followed was in general..and not directed at you, Rebel or anyone else in particular on this forum.

While the companies... sponsors or no sponsors... were working on going through the problems in question, they also had to deal with responses from the internet community that had no actual say in the matter. The focus went from dealing with actual problems to dealing with a general complaint when non customers also chimed in without even knowing what this was all about. Again, this is the negative power of the Internet and we had to take the responsibility to do what we did. Take off something that was actual legitimate complaints because it had turned into a negative campaign that moved from forum to forum without "us" ( not our sponsors) having any control over it.

We also understand that forums are a good place to air frustrations, but when the frustration turns into a mob and a hanging party, the good communication stops and both sides turn aggressive in a nasty way.
 ( man oh man have I taken the drivers seat in this area before.. )

  We.. in the middle.. have to deal with all of that the best way we think is possible.
The sponsors did not make us do this.
 The Triple M's ( that'd be us) made the decision to take the posts off so we and those actually involved could get focused on the actualities including customer support. We were starting to have so many phone calls and nasty e-mails about it that the "good complaints" were being drowned out by the name calling and mud slinging. 

So rest assured..that the only one pulling our handles are "us".

I really really really do hope that those of you who are thinking of pulling out of Down Range reconsider.  We value your input and your honesty as I hope you value ours.