Author Topic: When is a rifle not a rifle?  (Read 7939 times)

Big Frank

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When is a rifle not a rifle?
« on: March 02, 2018, 01:03:25 PM »
Last year the ATF decided  that a "rifle" with straight lands and grooves (no twist) isn't considered a rifle. And since it's not a smooth-bore it isn't a shotgun either. But it is a firearm and not an AOW. Since such a firearm is neither a rifle nor shotgun, one with a short barrel is neither an SBR or SBS. There's no tax stamp or waiting to get one to buy it. That's where the Franklin Armory Reformation comes in. http://www.reformationfirearms.com/services.html
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

billt

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2018, 02:27:12 PM »
Straight rifling equals no bullet spin. No bullet spin equals tumbling and total inaccuracy. The thing won't be able to hit the broadside of a barn at 150 yards. There "Finned & Flared" ammunition is most likely going to cost an arm and a leg compared to standard 5.56 MM / .223.

Big Frank

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 02:28:15 PM »
Straight rifling equals no bullet spin. No bullet spin equals tumbling and total inaccuracy. The thing won't be able to hit the broadside of a barn at 150 yards.

4 MOA at 100 yards and they're designing new bullets that will do much better.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

alfsauve

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 03:39:57 PM »
Let's say for sake of discussion, that this holds up.  It's not a rifle & not a shotgun so you can make an SBF, short barreled firearm, without NSF paper work.

This seems like a great market for PCC in 9mm.  Don't care a lot about accuracy out past 25yds in most cases.

Also the SBS's that are all the rage right now.  This would seem to be ideal.  Straight rifling wouldn't matter to those guns.


I think this is a pipe dream though.   Once the concept becomes popular, they'll reclassify it into a rifle or a shotgun.

 
Will work for ammo
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PegLeg45

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 06:04:55 PM »
Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me.
The best use is home defense where accuracy needs to be at least minute-of-sternum.
So with this, you gain the ability to add a shoulder stock to a short barreled firearm and avoid paperwork, but you lose the accuracy of rifling.
I think I'll just stick to an AR pistol because what I gain in accuracy by having rifling in a short barrel is much more effective than what I lose in stability with the missing shoulder stock.....and I don't need NFA papers for the AR pistol either.


Once the concept becomes popular, they'll reclassify it into a rifle or a shotgun.

+1
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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 12:21:20 PM »

les snyder

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2018, 10:07:51 PM »
I'll kick this around one more time.... this is what sits over my bed's headboard

do your homework on the legality of shouldering an AR15's PISTOL's buffer tube without anything like a brace or blade attached...BATFE has waffled on the brace and to me it is not worth the headache.... obtain a buffer tube that is long enough to allow you to hold as if it were a rifle... a rifle length is a little too long for me, and if you choose a factory adjustable, find some way of preventing a butt stock from being attached, like drilling and tapping a sling swivel... I wouldn't use an adjustable tube.. a KAK super tube is just right for me

purchase a complete lower, new from manufacturer and make sure the ATF 4473 is marked "other"... PSA has a lower with a blade and KAK tube

purchase a complete upper from manufacturer with a 7 to whatever length barrel you want... I like front sight tower and carry handle sight and a 10.5" is just about right for me... add a flashlight

remove the buffer tube that came with the lower if necessary, and replace with the longer tube

if you are feeling froggy, add a rubber end cap... it is not that uncomfortable to shoot without anything

test fire it with cheap Russian ammo, and if it cycles with that, you are probably good to go...you may need to change buffers....mine is loaded with M855

you don't have to worry about the legality of a brace or blade, if you don't have a brace or blade  YMMV

mine shoots a little over 2" with 69 Sierra  Match Kings and scope at 100yd... about that at 50yd with open sights and M855

alfsauve

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2018, 10:25:57 PM »
While on the legality subject, one of my anti-gun friends posted one of the videos showing a guy cutting up his AR.   Without stepping into the politics, I pointed out the guy had only cut the barrel and fore-end,  that the "gun", the lower was still intact.  Also the gun would still fire, albeit single action.   

BUT, the big no-no was he had just illegally converted his  AR into an SBR.  A gun design that by law is viewed as more dangerous than its previous configuration.
Will work for ammo
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Big Frank

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2018, 10:28:04 PM »
I think it's a solution to a real problem since a lot of people, myself included, don't want to go through the time and expense of getting an SBR, and being put on yet another government list. And I'm also not going to use an AR pistol's buffer tube like a stock, either with or without a brace. That's asking for trouble if anyone at the range sees you practicing at that. Unless you don't need practice, then don't don't go to the range. The person next to you could be an ATF agent, and the way they they've already changed their minds on AR pistols they could say shouldering an AR pistol makes it an SBR, like they said before. And as far as accuracy for home defense is concerned, in my house we're talking about spitting distance. That 4 MOA at 100 yards they mention translates to about 1/4" across the biggest room in my house. If I need a smaller group than that to hit what I'm aiming at from across the room, I'm doing something seriously wrong.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

les snyder

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 06:03:23 AM »
Jumbo.... just keep a copy with you of the BATFE letter stating that they have never classified a pistol as to the way it is fired, and that firing it from the shoulder using the buffer tube is perfectly legal... used to be a PDF file on Short barreled Shepherd or possibly Short Barrel Shepherd... if you choose the adjustable buffer tube, don't have a stock in your possession that can just slip on

Big Frank

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Re: When is a rifle not a rifle?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2018, 03:30:36 PM »
Jumbo.... just keep a copy with you of the BATFE letter stating that they have never classified a pistol as to the way it is fired, and that firing it from the shoulder using the buffer tube is perfectly legal... used to be a PDF file on Short barreled Shepherd or possibly Short Barrel Shepherd... if you choose the adjustable buffer tube, don't have a stock in your possession that can just slip on

I thought they said it was okay, then changed their mind, then changed it back and said it was okay again. I read something like that, but it may have only pertained to arm braces and not plain buffer tubes. I know there was a conversation about putting a crutch tip on a buffer tube too, but don't know how that turned out. Whether you have a letter from the ATF about that, or any other ruling about guns, a lot of cops will still arrest you if they think you're doing something wrong. You can call a lawyer from jail to try to get it sorted out. My experience with police is that they don't know much about laws on any subject I've had to deal with them about, especially guns.

I had a shotgun, a rifle, and a pellet gun all registered as pistols as was required by state law. But when I went to the local police station to register them, they told me none of those things were pistols and didn't need to be registered. Even after I told them which statute covered it and what page it was on in the state law book they had, they read it and still said the same thing. Then they got whoever was the supervisor on duty at the time to read it. He told them that it meant what it said, and I had to pay to register each of the 3 things as pistols so I was legal. I still have the rifle. It's a 10/22 about 40 years old with a folding stock. With the stock folded it's less than 30" long which in Michigan means it gets registered as a pistol. People who bought shotguns with a pistol grip had to get a purchase permit for a pistol to buy them if they were under 30".
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

 

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