Gun Debate - US vs Europe?

[oldeurope]

No, you do not get to change the subject or drive the agenda.  This is a gun forum specifically interested in the Second Amendment, we will be happy to discuss the specifics of our beliefs in and our reasons for support of RTKBA.

Strange, I thought I was doing exactly that...
Is the sole use of this forum to give yourself reassuring pads on the back?
Anyone else up to provide me with answers?

[Hazcat]

Strange, I thought I was doing exactly that...
Is the sole use of this forum to give yourself reassuring pads on the back?
Anyone else up to provide me with answers?

No, you are not "doing exactly that".  You are trying to bring liberalism, paranoia, and various other rights into the conversation.

No, we do not exist to "pat ourselves on the back", if you took the time to read through the history of posts here you will see disagreement and discussion on guns, the 2A, when to shoot, etc.

Lastly, please refrain from the condescending remarks.  They only prove the point that you are here to stir things up with emotion rather than discuss facts.

[twyacht]

Another quote by old europe;  "if I can't hope to induce understanding (and you are pushing me closer to that point ;-)"

You will induce nothing but a cerebral irritation that requires an Excedrin.

I'll use a liberal website to give you and your european friends some info regarding number of guns in the US (which is approximate because we like keeping some things FROM the gov't), and Euro countries gun numbers.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0709-03.htm

This data comes from your friends at the United Nations. Therefore you can't dispute it.

I think the Euro data is encouraging, go Finland!

There is a yellow brick road you can take whenever you like. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. You'll enjoy Oz when you get there, be sure to sing John Lennon's Imagine along the way.

[TSB]

To oldeurope.....

I believe that the discussions being held in this forum represent many differing views.  I also believe that the unfortunate accident that befell that young boy and his family is beyond my understanding.  I cannot fathom the heartache and pain being felt by them and in no way would I take it as a reason to question their motives in allowing the boy to fire that weapon.  Personally, I believe (probably an unpopular view) that automatic weapons should be left in the hands of the military or LE but I don’t condemn the views of people that disagree with me.  I believe that we all have rights under the Constitution that are written for the protection of the populace and should be adhered too.  Unfortunately, not everyone in this country follows those laws and our founding fathers understood that.

As a group, legal gun owners are some of the most law-abiding citizens in the land.  To break the laws that are in force in this country will most definitely affect our right to own a firearm and pursue a hobby or way of life that developed over a lifetime.  It’s only in the last thirty years or so, with the maturation of those free-loving folks of the sixties that we find the unrest from the left.  They were given free reign to voice their opinions then under the First Amendment and they should respect, under the same Constitution, our right to the Second! 

I just want to be left alone, to enjoy what freedoms I have left and to live a life unencumbered by government and all of its shortcomings.  I enjoy shooting sports, fishing and many other outdoor activities and don’t ask for handouts from anyone.  I am not paranoid but believe that protection of my home and family is a right that I will never give up and to suggest otherwise is purely a lack of knowledge of our history as a nation.  I’ve lost faith in mans ability to function as a society and if someone has just broken into my home and stuck a gun in my face, I seriously doubt they will take the time to ask how I voted this morning before they pull the trigger!

[tombogan03884]

Not boring at all. Thanks for this post.
Watch out here comes a new "rock", but it's not meant as a provocation, honestly. It's something I would like to exchange thoughts on. Even in the US you will have to agree, certain rights are controlled. Let's look at the issue of gay marriage. In many places they don't have the right to have equal rights -- to be created equal. I do have a feeling though, that not 5% of the people who fight passionately for 2nd A. would stir a finger to help to promote gay marriage. From an outside perspective, you develop a scepticism - is it really about rights and freedom or is a great deal of the original spirit perverted by "guncraziness" excuse my language, but I've seen people who I have difficulty to describe differently - obviously you are not one of them.

In order to understand my response you need to be familiar with 3 documents. The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States and the King James Bible. 
The Declaration of Independence refers to "God given unalienable rights", The Bible specifically condemns homosexuality, The Constitution strictly limits the powers of the federal government, and in article 10 of the bill of rights specifies that "All powers not SPECIFICALLY granted to the federal government" are reserved to the States. No where in the Constitution will you find reference to allowing what is generally perceived as perversion. While the first amendment says that Government will make no laws in respect to religion it is important to note that the core beliefs of the Founding Fathers were based on a Judeo - Christian moral code, not a Roman one, therefore it is perfectly consistent for strongly pro Constitutionalist gun owners to be opposed to "gay marriage" (unless they belong to www.pinkpistols.com) As for some sort of contractual "Civil union" I have no problem with that at all, as a divorced guy I see no reason that homosexuals of either gender should be deprived of the experiance of alimony, joint property divisions etc.
In short "gay marriage is NOT a right. Rights in America are NOT limited, Free speech / Free press for example, in Theory you are not allowed to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. However, the "Freedom carries with it the unspoken responsibility to be truthful, and to distinguish "Fact" from "opinion" this is not done as witness the blatant pro Obama slant of the main stream media in our current election cycle. Instead it has been expanded as "Freedom of Expression" (a phrase found nowhere in the Constitution) to allow pornography and desecration of national symbols
As for "guncraziness" the Second Amendment is what makes OUR Constitution different from those of the old USSR or Nazi Germany, WE have the right, and the power to ENFORCE our Constitutional limits on a potentially overstepping Government.
Without the ultimate check of an armed population the rest of the Constitution is just paper.

[Sponsor]

[jaybet]

I'm going to jump in here ONCE and then ignore this thread.
The only paranoia that most of us "gun folk" feel is resultant from the constant assault on our rights within our constitution, which we believe to be the greatest statement of individual rights in the world. Almost ANY american citizen will fight for first amendment rights (oldeurope is enjoying that right here), but when certain parties or groups decide to parse the constitution and attack our second amendment rights based on a minority interpretation of the constitution, we react in a defensive manner, as we all should any time ANY constitutional right is attacked. Of course, this vigilance and dedication to our rights is easily classified through smug comments as "paranoia" or "whacko tendencies". That is a much easier approach for folks of a different outlook to use instead of arguing with facts or logic, neither of which seem to fit their purpose.

Condescension and ridicule are the favored conversational tactics by those who either have no legitimate argument, have no propensity to understand a differing viewpoint, or simply do not understand the value of our constitutional rights and the ease with which they can be compromised.

It's like my sister-in-law...there's no convincing them, so unless you enjoy arguing, you're just wasting precious breath and time. oldeurope does not appear to be seeking knowlege or understanding, but more just looking for a debate. The exchange of ideas and debate is all well and good but inevitably the less conservative party reverts to condescension, which amounts to polite namecalling.  It's at that point that that he's just being a pain in the ass.
I'm going to go find a range report!

[Solus]

Oldeurope,

We all here feel for the loss of anyone, especially a child, to any accident...be it playground, traffic, electrical outlets, swimming pools or 5 gallon bucket accidents that take the lives of children. However, we also think before we react by demanding or proposing laws to outlaw playgrounds, automobiles, electrical outlets, swimming pools or 5 gallon buckets.  (more children are are killed each year by these than are accidentally killed by firearms).

The accidental death of a child by a firearm is no more tragic than by any other means. 


Please watch this video and then you feel.  Feel what may have happened repeatedly to the woman referenced in this video had she not had a firearm to protect herself.

Feel the helplessness she would have felt and the violation she would have suffered again were she forbidden to posses a firearm as you seem to suggest. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg


 

[tombogan03884]

Hey Jay, I happen to ENJOY sarcastically ridiculing ideas I find offensive, unfounded or just plain wrong. 

[Marshal Halloway]

Our friend from Germany (oldEurope) is obviously interested in learning more about the so called US gun culture. Previous posts on this thread is split from another thread to keep it on topic.

I will add my 2 cents as soon as time allows. 

[ericire12]

The troll is back!


Know your history, before you start condemning it. The Bill of Rights was put into place to insure our freedoms.

Can we all ignore this guy now and move on with our lives.